Sorry to disappoint. I am trying to steer the thread back to its course without jumping up and down yelling “HIJACK!” I see no reason to call out anyone and extend the hijack with all the claims and counterclaims that that would involve.
Yeah well I think you and I are cool. At least I think we’re cool. But referring to someone’s misanthropy really doesn’t belong in his forum, does it?
tomndebb, if you meant me, I heartily apologize. It’s just that young me seem to me to ooze a lot of energy as compared to women of the same age. I didn’t mean any harm by it, and I’m sorry if I offended any one.
Which is fortunate, because wouldn’t you look silly jumping up and down yelling “HIJACK” about the predomination of civilian responses to a thread entitled “Civilian office workers–How do you do it?”
In all fairness, I did say in the OP “Many of you are ex military, so have a perspective I’d especially like to hear.” I think tomndeb was just pointing out the dearth of ex military, as well as military.
Well, it’s not only biased, it’s a bit offensive. A better way to rephrase your OP might be “Here are some aspects of the military I liked. Where can I find civilian jobs with companies that have similar values and behaviors?” By coming with “here’s how awesome the military is, why does the civilian world suck” you are going to do either one of two things:
- put people who don’t feel their workplace is full of incompetant morons on the defensive
- attract every malcontent who hates their job which will just reinforce your opinion of civilian workplaces
Unfortunately as an aviator, I think you will find very few equivalent civilian careers. I used to look at the giant photo in our corporate cafeteria of an F-18 breaking the sound barrier and think to myself “wow…that photo pretty much embodies the exact opposite of anything that goes on in this building.”
The civilian world doesn’t have the consistency of the military world. In the civilian world, managers aren’t required to go through Managers Candidate School. You probably won’t get fired on a whim, but civilian companies can be a lot more arbitrary than what you might be used to in the military.
Although the way we “do it” is that we know we can go find another job if we really hate it that much.
Convenient if you hate your job. What if you love your job?
I was not referring to you, at all.
You will note that I made no claim that a preponderance of civilian respondants was a hijack. You should probably read what has been posted just a bit more carefully.
flyboy correctly noted that (in the passage to which you refer rather than the one you quoted) I merely expressed bemusement that more military and ex-military posters had not contributed, given that the OP expressly sought that sort of comment.
Technically speaking, you will note that I did not claim that you made such a claim, merely that you’d look rather silly if you did. You could likewise do with a bit of care in reading as well.
If you love your job, why would you be looking to leave?
I had a boss who was formerly an Israeli soldier in a special-forces unit. The real deal, over-the-borders covert ops, undercover work, stuff like that. The kind of shit that people sometimes brag about and you can tell that they’re lying. Well, this guy was definitely the real thing. He was absolutely gigantic and quite scary looking, but extremely silent, reserved, and introverted.
He was also stoned every single day.
Eventually his business went under. It wasn’t totally his fault, it was more bad luck than anything else, and a case of a guy who was out of his league in a very tough business. He was a pretty good boss and I had no complaints against him.
I think **levdrakon ** means what if you like your job or certain aspects of your job, but other aspects of it are intolerable. That’s a tough call and I think it’s up to each individual to evaluate what is important to them about their job. For example, my last job, I liked the location, most of the people I worked with, I had a position of some seniority and I enjoy the various perks of consulting. What I didn’t like was the cronyism and lack of any kind of respect for your personal life. Also, the work was becoming very repetitive. My current job I like that it’s more regular and I think I’m getting a much broader skill set, however the location sucks, it is not as “sexy” as working as a consultant and apparently the boss is crazy. So in my next job, I need to evaluate which of these things are most important to me.
Personally, I put a high value on the people and the environment. I’m much more willing to put in long hours if I like and respect the people I work with and am treated with respect by the people I work for. Being able to expense a sushi dinner before calling the car service to take me home is also a plus.
I think that may be part of the disconnect. I’m in an industry where there are almost always other jobs available and it’s always an option to look for a new position. I don’t necessarily like the transition period but it’s something I’ve managed to accept several times as I’ve switched jobs. It’s a big decision, but not usually a life-changing one.
I’ve also worked in startups and large established companies, and the corporate culture is an important factor. Many (but not all) startups have a community of people with a common goal that can create a productive and happy work environment at the expense of expecting 12 hour days and weekends. Many (but not all) large established companies have bureaucracies and established deadwood that can stifle creativity and enjoyment, but you’re allowed to leave your work at the office. Most places are a mix in between, with good and bad aspects.
My impression (and please educate me if this is not true) is that it’s much more difficult to change assignments in the military. People may be forced to deal with stuff rather then move jobs. I have friends who are civilian employees of the Navy and they complain about the same crap that I have to deal with, so it certainly exists in some parts of the military.
If you’re a good person, act with integrity and treat your people well, they’ll crawl on their knees through hell to do what needs to be done.
If you’re a tyrant who demands that people crawl through hell, often YOUR hell, in order to do their daily job, you probably blame your high turnover on all the pussies who can’t keep up to your “tough standards”. The Hint is that they’re not the ones failing, you are.
I’ve come to the base realization that, due to my history of being abused as a child, I have extremely high standards for people who are in positions of power, especially power over me. Those standards require Integrity and Respect for myself and everyone else. Being your employee does not mean that you own me, or that you can treat me however the hell you want. That’s my father’s track, and I won’t tolerate a mere employer playing that game with me. Being a manager doesn’t give your feudal rights over your serf/employees.
I also have a saying: “Respect is a two-edged sword. If it’s not given, it’s not earned.”
Finally: The fastest way to show that you do not deserve respect as a leader is to attempt to command or demand it, regardless of your actions or behavior. It is true enough that in gaining position, you are due a certain amount of respect from those beneath you. But to keep and maintain that respect, you have to show that you deserve it, by your words and your actions, every day. If you don’t, then you don’t.
When did I say “I’m looking to leave?”
In the civilian sector, you can be fired for no reason at all. In the military, no matter how much your supervisor seems to hate you, as long as you’re good at your job and do what you’re supposed to do, that supervisor can go pound sand.
Of course there are big differences among civilian companies and organizations. Some places have HR departments that will protect you, and other places have unions that will protect you. Some places your supervisor can fire you on the spot because they just got dumped by their girl/boyfriend and they want to punish someone of the same gender.
In direct response to the OP, and having been both in the military and (thankfully) a civilian for the past 35 years, there truly are two different worlds. Civilians who have never been in the military have no appreciation of the freedom we are allowed in our daily lives, including at work. We have such a sense of individual rights and entitlement that it is incomprehensible to many of us that we could actually be held accountable for our actions, inaction, etc. On the other hand, it is exactly that lack of military-style accountability that allows civilians to be creative in addressing all kinds of challenges in th edaily workplace.
They are, as I said, two different worlds. I’ve lived and worked in both of them. I thrived in the military world and have tremendous respect for all those who serve. But I prefer this civilian world, where I can tell an incompetent boss 15 years my junior to stuff his “process” up his ass, and go find another job.
And in the civilian sector you can quit for no reason at all. And in the military sector you can’t. I’m not saying one is better then the other (and I don’t think you are either) but they are different and have different pluses and minuses.
For me, in my field, the ability to quit whenever I want is a huge bonus that I have used several times and would be loath to give up.
I’m actually curious as to what flyboy’s wife does for a living, what industry she’s in and whether it’s what she chose to be in it.
There are a lot of reasons people think their coworkers are “incompetant morons”. But I often wonder if your coworkers are so stupid, why not find a job with smarter coworkers?
I’m also a little curious how “military style accountability” differs from civilian accountability. I’m kind of seeing somewhat of a discrepency here. Some civilian workplaces you can apparently be fired at the drop of a hat while others employees can act like retards with no repercussions.