# Civilians pretending they're guarding recruiters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929 "2015-07-23T04:55:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/41 "2015-07-23T21:29:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Roaming the streets_? Who said anything about roaming the fucking streets? How about sitting quietly in their\* place of business\*? > > If we cant trust them to carry a handgun\* in their office\*, how can we trust them with a 20 megaton nuclear device? The military does a very good job of training its personnel to operate the weapons that they are expected to use. Pilots, bombardiers, artillery gunners, tankers, infantry troops, missile launchers, etc. Handgun training is an important aspect of Military Police/Shore Patrol, Security Forces, and related fields. The typical recruiter, (unless he has been in security), is not trained beyond basic handling to operate a handgun. This is not surprising. There are a limited number of hours in the day and spending time training people to use weapons they will never hold is a waste of those hours. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/42 "2015-07-23T21:36:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The military does a very good job of training its personnel to operate the weapons that they are expected to use. Pilots, bombardiers, artillery gunners, tankers, infantry troops, missile launchers, etc. Handgun training is an important aspect of Military Police/Shore Patrol, Security Forces, and related fields. The typical recruiter, (unless he has been in security), is not trained beyond basic handling to operate a handgun. > This is not surprising. There are a limited number of hours in the day and spending time training people to use weapons they will never hold is a waste of those hours. Right. So if they want to carry one, have them get trained & certified, instead of flat out saying they _can’t_ and they have to be sitting ducks. Make it an option. However, my Dad wore the Expert Marksman (Pistol + others) and never worked MPs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/43 "2015-07-23T21:49:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If we cant trust them to carry a handgun\* in their office\*, how can we trust them with a 20 megaton nuclear device? When you say _we_, do you mean senior military leadership, who are the ones who wrote the rules not allowing them to carry a handgun? If so, I suggest you ask them. Their answer would probably be that they don’t trust any single person with a 20 megaton nuclear device, which is probably a wise idea. Having said that, are you aware that a couple of servicemembers, despite the ban on handguns, did in fact have handguns with them, and shot at the guy? Point being, if you think having handguns available to them would have made a difference, you’re probably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/44 "2015-07-23T21:49:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No guns are not inherently dangerous. Guns in the hands of idiots are. Read the article I posted above. That is the quality of personnel that are coming out to guard. Look at me! Look at me! From the same article: > [@](#): > > Reed pleaded guilty and was convicted of the same offense in 2013, and was fined $50, court records show. Yeah, anti-idiot ≠ anti-gun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/45 "2015-07-23T22:28:45Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > When you say _we_, do you mean senior military leadership, who are the ones who wrote the rules not allowing them to carry a handgun? If so, I suggest you ask them. Their answer would probably be that they don’t trust any single person with a 20 megaton nuclear device, which is probably a wise idea. > > Having said that, are you aware that a couple of servicemembers, despite the ban on handguns, did in fact have handguns with them, and shot at the guy? Point being, if you think having handguns available to them would have made a difference, you’re probably wrong. You can fly a A10 Warthog by yourself, with enough firepower to destroy a small town. Well, the story there is unclear. Were they authorized? And note the other recent shooting where a lone Police officer shot down two terrorists before they were able to kill anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/46 "2015-07-23T22:30:08Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s funny that anti-gun people think they can claim to not be anti-gun and then go right on in the next sentence being anti-gun. Ah, now I see your problem. You’re delusional. > [@](#): > > Thinking that guns themselves are inherently dangerous and make it highly likely that someone would get hurt by the mere presence of them is anti-gun. That is not at all what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/47 "2015-07-23T22:31:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > . . . Thinking that guns themselves are inherently dangerous and make it highly likely that someone would get hurt by the mere presence of them is anti-gun. . . . I think that guns are inherently dangerous somewhere between the way that lawnmowers are inherently dangerous and the way that heavy cranes are inherently dangerous. You don’t need to be certified to operate the lawnmower, you do need to be certified to operate the crane. You should know and follow a bunch of safety rules to operate either of them. One meta-rule is that you don’t operate such equipment unless there’s need to use that particular tool. To my mind, Security Theater is not a sufficient need. I wouldn’t want a bunch of unregulated, self-selected volunteers with lawnmowers announcing that they’re going to protect my place of business, especially when there has been no call for volunteers. Unregulated, self-selected volunteers with anything would be worrying. > [@Bayard](#): > > From the article:So, there you are, standing watch in the red zone, and a random guy strolls up and asks to take a look at your weapon. And you say “Sure, here it is.” I’m curious how Reed determined that the guy was not a threat. I mean, there Reed is, in an area just lousy with hostiles, and he’s able to determine that this stranger is OK enough to just hand over his rifle to him. Body language I guess. Hey, it says he was trying to unload it before handing it over when it went off. He wasn’t being completely trusting. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/48 "2015-07-23T22:32:13Z")
What about Islamic-extremist civilians shooting unguarded recruiters? Are these (largely) former military servicemen putting on theatrics really the problem we should be concerned about? Or is there a preferred narrative needs a-pushin’, and Blithery McBlitherson was called down from his moral perch for false prognostication? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/49 "2015-07-23T22:36:41Z")
The Onion is generally a pretty silly site, which is good, because a lot of their stuff is hilarious. But the edition they published after 9/11 wasn’t really silly at all, and it includes what is, I think, in a lot of ways, one of my favorite Onion articles. > **[Not Knowing What Else To Do, Woman Bakes American-Flag Cake](https://www.theonion.com/not-knowing-what-else-to-do-woman-bakes-american-flag-1819566173)** > > TOPEKA, KS—Feeling helpless in the wake of the horrible Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that killed thousands, Christine Pearson baked a cake and decorated it like an American flag Monday. When tragedy happens, people feel a need to do something, if for no other reason than to reassure themselves they are doing something and stop feeling helpless. That’s what these people are doing. They’re scared and they’re trying to help. They’re probably not helping, but I sort of give them some credit because at least they’re trying to. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/50 "2015-07-23T23:07:12Z")
Seems a good idea: hanging around waiting to recruit must be dull, and if the guards are special people such as on this site they will have plenty of anecdotes and opinions that can amuse their captive audience for days. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/51 "2015-07-23T23:59:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. So if they want to carry one, have them get trained & certified, instead of flat out saying they _can’t_ and they have to be sitting ducks. Make it an option. They may do just that. Apparently, the regs are under review. However, you are criticizing a policy that has been in effect for decades, (perhaps more than a century), for which there has been no previous need to be set differently. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/52 "2015-07-24T00:14:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Onion is generally a pretty silly site, which is good, because a lot of their stuff is hilarious. But the edition they published after 9/11 wasn’t really silly at all, and it includes what is, I think, in a lot of ways, one of my favorite Onion articles. > > [http://www.theonion.com/article/not-knowing-what-else-to-do-woman-bakes-american-f-221](http://www.theonion.com/article/not-knowing-what-else-to-do-woman-bakes-american-f-221) > > When tragedy happens, people feel a need to do something, if for no other reason than to reassure themselves they are doing something and stop feeling helpless. That’s what these people are doing. They’re scared and they’re trying to help. They’re probably not helping, but I sort of give them some credit because at least they’re trying to. Baking an American Flag cake would be far more useful and less dangerous than a bunch of yahoos who don’t even know how to safely clear a weapon they own guarding a recruiting center. They don’t any credit. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/53 "2015-07-24T00:16:18Z")
From [10tv.com](http://10tv.com) in Ohio: LANCASTER, Ohio - A man standing guard outside of an armed forces recruiting center in southern Ohio has accidentally fired his weapon. Lancaster Police tell 10TV 28-year-old Christopher Reed fired an AR-15 rifle while attempting to clear the ammunition from the weapon at the Armed Forces Career Center on River Valley Boulevard Thursday afternoon. The bullet struck the ground and no one was injured. Reed was cited for accidental discharge in city limits. His gun was confiscated until a court hearing next week. In response, U.S. Properties Group - which owns the strip mall where the recruiting center is located - requested Lancaster Police “escort all armed civilians from our property.” Speaking with 10TV earlier this week at the same recruiting center in Lancaster, armed civilian Clayton Waities sees the “gun-free” zones at the center as “slaughter-easy zones” that leave recruiters vulnerable. "If somebody were to think about doing something here and they drive by and they see me, they’re going to think twice,” he explains. The armed citizens say they are there for protection, but unlike law enforcement and military, there’s no knowing what training they’ve had for such a position. “While it’s neat to see and neat to see everyone being patriotic and everyone standing up to protect one another, we just want to make sure everybody’s safe,” Bullet Ranch General Manager Jerry Carver said. He is hoping everyone taking this stance is also reviewing the rules on the safe way to discharge a firearm. "Please re-read it, reread it twice, re-read three times.” This comes as armed civilians have rallied to protect military recruiting centers in the wake of a deadly shooting in Chattanooga, Tennessee last week. Meanwhile, just one day ago, Ohio Governor and 2016 presidential candidate John Kasich authorized the Ohio National Guard to carry weapons at recruiting stations. [http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2015/07/23/lancaster-ohio-civilian-guard-protecting-lancaster-recruiting-center-accidentally-fires-weapon.html](http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2015/07/23/lancaster-ohio-civilian-guard-protecting-lancaster-recruiting-center-accidentally-fires-weapon.html) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/54 "2015-07-24T01:01:06Z")
Is anyone else scared we haven’t heard whether George Zimmerman is planning to help out with this anytime soon? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/55 "2015-07-24T01:10:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, the story there is unclear. Were they authorized? And note the other recent shooting where a lone Police officer shot down two terrorists before they were able to kill anyone. 1. They were not authorized. 2) Military aren’t police, which is something American patriots have historically felt pretty strongly about. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/56 "2015-07-24T01:30:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > … > Next: How soon do you think it’s going to be when one of these “citizen guards” decides to flex his muscles/brandish his weapon/otherwise attempt/actually even take a shot at/kill someone … > [@Debaser](#): > > Never. This won’t happen. … > It might be somewhat stupid, but it’s not dangerous … > … > Want to make a bet? > Seriously, I’ll put money up that this won’t happen if you want to. > . > [@Loach](#): > > [At least no one got hurt this time.](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/07/23/recruiting-center-shot-fired.html) > > I wish this was a satire article. Man, Monty, if only you had predicted the pesky accidental discharge, and played your cards right, you could have become a veeery wealthy man. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/57 "2015-07-24T02:06:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > 1. They were not authorized. 2) Military aren’t police, which is something American patriots have historically felt pretty strongly about. The news articles say they dont know whether or not they were authorized. MI and MPs can carry weapons. Yes, and so? Your point was that two guys were armed but were unable to prevent the shooting anyway. My point was that just a while ago a lone cop was able to prevent a terrorist shooting. There is no reason to suspect that a armed combat veteran marine could not do so as well. In fact the lone cop was a Military reservist, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/58 "2015-07-24T02:14:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They may do just that. Apparently, the regs are under review. > However, you are criticizing a policy that has been in effect for decades, (perhaps more than a century), for which there has been no previous need to be set differently. We haven’t had these kinds of attacks until “recently”. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/59 "2015-07-24T02:46:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We haven’t had these kinds of attacks until “recently”. That is, unless I’m sorely mistaken, precisely the point. Kudos for skillfully zeroing in on that enormous bullseye. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/60 "2015-07-24T02:56:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The news articles say they dont know whether or not they were authorized. MI and MPs can carry weapons. Kind of silly of you to be in here arguing about this issue if they are in fact allowed to carry weapons. By the way, of all the employers who forbid their employees to carry weapons at work, why single out the military? I’m pretty sure I’m not allowed to have a handgun in my office; why aren’t the nutjobs out screaming at my employer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929.md?page=4)