# Civilians pretending they're guarding recruiters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929 "2015-07-23T04:55:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/161 "2015-07-31T08:59:12Z")
Support the troops! You know, unless they’re the wrong _kind_ of troops, in which case, fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/162 "2015-07-31T10:57:18Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > 6 1/2 years, United States Army, Active Duty, separated at the rank of Specialist (5), transferred to the drilling Reserve. 13 months drilling with the Army Reserve, separated from Reserves upon enlistment into the US Navy. 13 1/2 years, United States Navy, Active Duty, retired as Personnelman First Class. Why do you hate the air force? ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/163 "2015-07-31T11:18:53Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Why do you hate the air force? They were always looking down on him. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/164 "2015-07-31T14:09:01Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > What is the value added from untrained civilian gunmen protecting recruiting stations? Well, there’s the intrinsic value of Free Speech. "There I was, VC coming from the left, VC coming from the right, VC coming up the center … it was just me and a couple M-60’s to save the entire division … " There’s the value of extra protection for the recruiters. “Terrorists are _everywhere_, everybody should be afraid all the time !!!” Guns are cool, that’s something of a value in some communities … granted not all but some communities celebrate guns and the right to carry them most everywhere. I see no downside to some old guy with coke bottle bottom glasses packin’ heat, just seems a perfectly normal thing to see in and around town. * * * “Untrained”? Do you mean police training? Considering the recent spate of police shootings, I’m not too sure that’s an especially good benchmark. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/165 "2015-07-31T14:37:38Z")
**watchwolf49** , I can’t tell if any part or all of that post was satire. Going strictly on the context of your previous posts to this thread, I’ll assume you’re not joking. [ol] [li]Free speech - I’ll give you that one, but it doesn’t show ‘value added’ by the firearms, except symbolically. Which seems to be outweighed by the public safety aspect.[/li][li]Protection for the recruiters - The military seems to disagree with you here. In fact, looks like they consider those armed civilians more of an added element of risk to their recruiters and the general public than any sort of mitigation of the (incredibly low) risk of terrorist attacks.[/li][li]Coolness of guns - yeah, they neat. You could carry guns to other places filled with like-minded individuals and actually fire them at targets. Then you could _really_ enjoy the coolitude.[/li][li]Packin’ heat perfectly cromulent public behavior - Maybe in your neck of the woods. Not remotely normal in most urban or suburban areas of the country.[/li][/ol] > [@](#): > > “Untrained”? Do you mean police training? I mean some experience and instruction regarding the carrying of firearms at the ‘ready’ while standing guard or patrolling an area. Training would also necessarily include some understanding of the legalities involved in civilian patrols and use of force in the jurisdiction where they’re performing their Freedom. A cop with a gun can be presumed to have had such instruction, and also has explicit authority. Joe Beerbelly not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/166 "2015-07-31T14:59:28Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > They were always looking down on him. I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate this. ::Claps:: ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/167 "2015-07-31T15:19:32Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate this. ::Claps:: Don’t encourage him. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/168 "2015-07-31T15:32:01Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Don’t encourage him. Nah, go ahead. I thought it was funny, too. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/169 "2015-07-31T16:29:47Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > **watchwolf49** , I can’t tell if any part or all of that post was satire. Going strictly on the context of your previous posts to this thread, I’ll assume you’re not joking. No, I’m not joking. I certainly appreciate your position and what your community finds socially acceptable. I find no fault in your community’s choices, our choices work for us. > [@xenophon41](#): > > I mean some experience and instruction regarding the carrying of firearms at the ‘ready’ while standing guard or patrolling an area. I think the best that can be expected is NRA Hunter’s Safety training, which is actually pretty good. It’s one thing to sling a 30/30 over your shoulder as a symbol of free speech, quite another to take bead on a human being and shoot. I’ve found _real_ gun-nuts take special care to never commit a felony. I think this is less about public safety and more about the manner of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/170 "2015-07-31T16:55:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > decides to Pit you. I will admit my first thought when reading that post yesterday was “is this the Pit.” The second was starting a dedicated thread. The third was I really need to read the rules a couple times…carefully. That third bit is still touchy. On a note more focused on you, I’ve had the privilege to be served by and lead some hard working, dedicated, professional personnel folks during my time in uniform. They took great care of me when I had the joyous “good fortune” to spend time as a Battalion S1 despite being a maneuver guy. They ate a lot of shit for their efforts from below. The got tasked with a lot of random, seemingly stupid shit that wasn’t strictly their jobs…sometimes by me :D. The end result was significant contributions to both mission accomplishment and Soldier care. If you merely met the standard at your pay grade, there’s no doubt in my mind some of your former leaders would say the same about you and the Sailors you led. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/171 "2015-07-31T17:56:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > decides to Pit you. In Soviet Russia … ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/172 "2015-07-31T19:38:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nah, go ahead. I thought it was funny, too. The proper response it to groan and hang your head in shame. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/173 "2015-08-01T14:29:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nah, go ahead. I thought it was funny, too. Me too (Former USAF) 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Inna\_Minnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Inna\_Minnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inna_Minnit)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/174 "2015-08-03T01:59:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And your silly point is? > > **Exactly how is pushing papers any demonstration of a noncombattants ability to be an armed effective?** > > I have probably had more paperwork misfiled by PNs than most women. The best thing a PN can do is resolve the screwed up pay issues of an actual combattant. Wow. The stupid is strong with this one. You do realize, that all military troops go through training in weapons, right? And someone who is in a combat station is not a noncombattant. They are by definition in a combat position. Even if you are too stupid to figure it out, the word is RIGHT THERE. Ya dumb shit. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/175 "2015-08-03T03:21:00Z")
My weapons training consisted of firing 50 rounds with a Vietnam-era rifle. It was one day of safety training and one day on the firing range in basic, and I never touched a firearm again. Literally, that was the last time I handled a firearm (unless laser tag with the kids counts). Had I been assigned to a combat zone, I would have received additional training, maybe with a weapon that wasn’t nearly as old as I was. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/176 "2015-08-03T03:26:00Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So, give your actual combatant perspective, **aruvqan**. How is **Monty** ’s perspectivre wrong, per your experience? What is the value added from untrained civilian gunmen protecting recruiting stations? I would prefer to actually train and arm the personnel assigned to the recruiting stations. My point is that police are not a defensive force, in general they are an investigative force. The only time they generally find crime as it is happening is if they are on a patrol or an assigned posting where there is a moderately high crime rate. In a majority of the US there is not an effective concentration of police available to be able to roll a cop on anything and get them there in much under half an hour, and an a vast majority of areas the more realistic time is an hour or sometimes even greater. I know for a fact that my zone in Connecticut has a 45 minute response time with ambulances or fire [volunteer force and during normal working hours there is a lag between the call and response thanks to needing to get the people paged and in their vehicles.] I also know that we do not have an assigned state cop in Canterbury, we share with the towns in our zone so we get one when one is free. If I had a rapist breaking down my front door, my best response if I were not handicapped would be to go out my bedroom window and try to get to a neighbor [who may or may not be home …] before the rapist could get me. My actual response would be to get one of my weapons and deal with the situation because I have no reasonable possibility of either escape or evasion. And it would still take about 30 minutes if there was a cop on my side of the zone, it would probably be faster for me to just make a call for the meatwagon. And please keep in mind I happen to live in Eastern Connecticut within 20 miles of one of the largest casinos in the country … [if I want to push it to 25 miles, I have both Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods…] so it isn’t like I was in central Nebraska and 50 miles from anything. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/177 "2015-08-03T03:28:55Z")
So you’re saying there’s no value in having possibly untrained/probably poorly trained civilians “guarding” recruitment centers? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/178 "2015-08-03T04:07:37Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > From [10tv.com](http://10tv.com) in Ohio: LANCASTER, Ohio - A man standing guard outside of an armed forces recruiting center in southern Ohio has accidentally fired his weapon. Oh dear. I’m from just outside of Lancaster. I was just relieved not to see any family names pop up! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/179 "2015-08-03T04:58:45Z")
What does all that bullshit in post #176 have to do with all the bullshit you posted earlier, aruvqan? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929/180 "2015-08-03T05:15:17Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I think this is less about public safety and more about the manner of free speech. I don’t see it. If this were about freedom of speech, then there could be no law against it even if the Second Amendment didn’t exist. But I think they very well could say “no guns in this public area” without the Second Amendment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilians-pretending-theyre-guarding-recruiters/725929.md?page=10)