# Civility and politeness and the don't be a jerk rule (or the lack thereof) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479 "2015-10-12T21:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/1 "2015-10-12T21:37:02Z")
There is no such thing as “politeness and civility” on SDMB. There is only different sets of rules for different sections of the website. So, let’s say you are in GD and you can’t call someone stupid and you can’t say their comment is stupid but you can say it is absolutely devoid of intellectual merit or validity. I get it. This is a clubhouse. Most of you have been here for 15+ years and you like to run things the way you want them run, the way you prefer. That is fine. What bothers me is when one of your own moderators defends himself for insulting me by saying “I was talking about your comments”… then insults me _again_ and I respond by saying only a hypocritical mean spirited person hides behind “the rules”… and then — I — am the one that a moderator gives (not a warning) but correction too. You can follow the whole thing right here. [114](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18764504&postcount=114), [117](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18764578&postcount=117), [142](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18765160&postcount=142), [189](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18766677&postcount=189), [202](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18766818&postcount=202) The most relevant points: > [@](#): > > [114] **Robert 163** …one that did not call me a bigot [miller] or say that i suffered from a poverty of debate (exact quote, i think) or was logically deficient (approximation) [Tom] > [@](#): > > [142] **TomNDebb** … You should recognize that I am addressing the content of your posts and not calling you names. If you.cannot recognize that distinction, you are making my point. > [@](#): > > [189] **Robert163** … Oh, so you want to hide behind the “rules”. You are missing the point. Hiding behind the rules is for hypocritical mean spirited people. Yet you think so highly of yourself. I’m surprised you can’t see the distinction. > > ETA: Wow, seriously… what a sad and twisted double standard you have. > [@](#): > > [202] **Engineer computer geek** … Posts in ATMB are supposed to be polite and civil. Not only is this not polite, it’s justifiably warnable for personal insults. I’ll be kind and just give you a mod note here. > > This is also not your first post in this thread that goes beyond the ATMB limits of politeness and civility. My problem is not with TomnDebb or Miller of the comment Engineer Computer Geek. Let me rephrase that, I am not contesting any specific comment or any specific poster or moderator. I am talking about the overall atmosphere of this board. Very Strong Disclaimer: There are lots of posters here who never engage in these snarky, rude, condescending remarks that so many other posters seem to descend into. In closing, I think this place is dysfunctional cesspool of infighting, negativity and cynicism. The fact that you have “rules” for different sections of the web page is disingenuous. Either you are dedicated to politeness and civility, to the don’t be a jerk rule, or you are not. For most people here, well, at least enough to make it seem like it is most people, there is no difference between Jerry Springer and SDMB. Well, the only difference is that on SDMB there is more articulate vocabulary and more precise use of logic… but the basic mudslinging and condescension is essentially the same. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/2 "2015-10-12T21:44:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > … I think this place is dysfunctional cesspool … I think “cesspool” is just a bit over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/3 "2015-10-12T21:53:28Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I think “cesspool” is just a bit over the top. A distinction that for the moment, I am not that very interested in. Although, technically, you are most likely correct. I am voicing my frustration. Me being hyperbolic is less relevant than the general point that I am making. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/4 "2015-10-12T22:01:29Z")
So you are frustrated. Why do you keep coming back to become more frustrated? Me, I never (almost never) venture into GD because I don’t enjoy being either frustrated or enraged. As for other kinds of snark in other fora, that’s what I’m here for! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/5 "2015-10-12T22:05:59Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > So you are frustrated. Why do you keep coming back to become more frustrated? Me, I never (almost never) venture into GD because I don’t enjoy being either frustrated or enraged. As for other kinds of snark in other fora, that’s what I’m here for! Honestly? I’m unemployed, have too much time on my hands and I’m bored. Also… Facebook and twitter and other more modern forms of social media have little appeal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/7 "2015-10-12T22:12:07Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > There is no such thing as “politeness and civility” on SDMB. … > [@Robert163](#): > > … > What bothers me is when one of your own moderators defends himself for insulting me by saying “I was talking about your comments”… then insults me again… > [@Robert163](#): > > … > My problem is not with TomnDebb or Miller of the comment Engineer Computer Geek. Let me rephrase that, I am not contesting any specific comment or any specific poster or moderator. I am talking about the overall atmosphere of this board… Is this a complaint about the board in general or how a mod treated you? If it’s the former, I think we all know that forums have specific rules. I doubt that changes any time soon. If it’s the latter, then maybe you need to address it in something other than a passive-aggressive manner. This is why it’s confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/8 "2015-10-12T22:22:33Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Is this a complaint about the board in general or how a mod treated you? > > If it’s the former, I think we all know that forums have specific rules. I doubt that changes any time soon. If it’s the latter, then maybe you need to address it in something other than a passive-aggressive manner. > > This is why it’s confusing. nm ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/9 "2015-10-12T22:23:24Z")
Here’s the thing: the membership of this board is not monolithic in their opinion of how it should be run. Some want tighter regulation of the kind of snarky and spiteful digs you mention. Others want a freer board with more loose regulation, allowing more self-policing and less moderating. They want more freedom to snark each other. The moderators here are trying to find a middle ground that has some type of objective rules, or at least clean lines to be drawn. The “don’t be a jerk” rule was the original rule and overall guideline, but “jerk” comes in a lot of flavors, and in order to maintain the original style of the board, some back and forth is allowed. I don’t know that anyone thinks the rules and how they are enforced is ideal, but they are the best compromise that has been devised to still approach consistency, without making a rulebook that is longer and more complicated than a software license. The moderators are given some leeway to use their judgement rather than define everything down to a gnat’s whisker, but that also fosters complaints of bias and unfairness. The goal is to have a place with the freedom to express disagreement strongly and make jokes, but not devolve into the nastiness of places like youtube comments. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/10 "2015-10-12T22:27:26Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Here’s the thing: the membership of this board is not monolithic in their opinion of how it should be run. Some want tighter regulation of the kind of snarky and spiteful digs you mention. Others want a freer board with more loose regulation, allowing more self-policing and less moderating. They want more freedom to snark each other. > > The moderators here are trying to find a middle ground that has some type of objective rules, or at least clean lines to be drawn. The “don’t be a jerk” rule was the original rule and overall guideline, but “jerk” comes in a lot of flavors, and in order to maintain the original style of the board, some back and forth is allowed. > > I don’t know that anyone thinks the rules and how they are enforced is ideal, but they are the best compromise that has been devised to still approach consistency, without making a rulebook that is longer and more complicated than a software license. The moderators are given some leeway to use their judgement rather than define everything down to a gnat’s whisker, but that also fosters complaints of bias and unfairness. > > The goal is to have a place with the freedom to express disagreement strongly and make jokes, but not devolve into the nastiness of places like youtube comments. Actually, I’d say that is a pretty good description and an explanation that I mainly support or agree with. You explained it very well, truth be told. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/11 "2015-10-12T22:33:13Z")
> [@Barktree](#): > > Tomndebb has a history of this. This is his castle, either you ship up or ship out. You won’t get anywhere with this except getting banned and put on the mod’s shit list. Here’s how it’ll go: Tomndebb will patiently wait for other posters to concur with his reasoning, he will then use (or quote) that reasoning in post to shut you down, then he (or someone else) will shut the thread down. Rinse, lather, repeat. This place desperately needs brand new blood and new direction. People want to discuss stuff, debate, and exchange ideas; they don’t need bunch of middle-aged people playing nursemaid to adults, hanging and analyzing every single word they type. You’ve been here for a week. Wow, you either figured **TomNDebb** out really quickly, or accidentally posted this under the wrong user name. :eek: :dubious: . ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/12 "2015-10-12T22:35:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > nm I was hoping you’d elaborate. If your thought is that **TomNDeb** ’s post was a bit snarky, then I might have backed up you up there, but you have to make that statement and ride with it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/13 "2015-10-12T22:54:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I was hoping you’d elaborate. If your thought is that **TomNDeb** ’s post was a bit snarky, then I might have backed up you up there, but you have to make that statement and ride with it. I have some degree of negative comment about the comments of **TomNDebb** (and **Miller** , as well) but for the most part their comments are not that atypical or uncommon, among more “heated/critical” comments that are often made on SDMB, so, it is not worth singling out those specific comments for lengthy debate. My complaint is the overall tone of SDMB as a whole, and, more specifically the idea that “don’t be a jerk” is not paid attention too much at all. Also… and I admit that I am not the nicest person and that I am negative biased and cynical… I’ll make no denial of that at all. Indeed, I need to improve. But, I guess my attitude is… I really don’t like it when people hide behind rules to make snarky condescending remarks. Whatever I have to say to a person I am pretty direct. My attitude does not change much from section to section on SDMB or online vs offline. I am trying to moderate my comments because of the “rules” in ABTM… my number #1 point is I think it speaks pretty lowly of a persons character when they hide behind rules to make insults and walk a round like some sanctified innocent person who is “just trying to combat ignorance”. ETA: A moderator… really should be above such behavior. I guess that bothers me quite a bit too, honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/14 "2015-10-12T23:00:51Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “jerk” comes in a lot of flavors Mostly containing allspice. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/15 "2015-10-12T23:13:58Z")
From the OP: > [@Tomndebb](#): > > You should recognize that I am addressing the content of your posts and not calling you names. If you.cannot recognize that distinction, you are making my point. Tomndebb is notorious for this kind of behaviour. His MO is to stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. Worse, he does it all with the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the Pope speaking ex cathedra. Or, as tomndebb himself might say: Tomndebb’s…_posts_ are notorious for this kind of…_phrasing_. His MO is to…_craft posts_ which stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. His…_posts_ display the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the…_sort of posts_ the Pope might make if he spoke ex cathedra…_in GD_. He’s not fooling anyone. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/16 "2015-10-12T23:47:03Z")
> [@Barktree](#): > > Tomndebb has a history of this. This is his castle, either you ship up or ship out. That’s _shape_ up or ship out. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/17 "2015-10-13T00:07:40Z")
I don’t understand these types of threads. If participating in and reading threads at the SDMB is causing you so much frustration and negative feelings, the solution to those problems is so, so easy: don’t log on. **Poof!**. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/18 "2015-10-13T00:16:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Also… and I admit that I am not the nicest person and that I am negative biased and cynical… I’ll make no denial of that at all. Indeed, I need to improve. Or you could go with your strengths, and with a bit of practice make posts just as snarky and condescending as the worst of them. It might be fun. I think the rules are pretty clear, if some times unevenly applied. You can challenge and even denigrate some one’s assumptions, logic, and conclusions, but you can not insult a person’s intelligence, religion, or … DNA. You can call a post idiotic; you can not call a poster an idiot. I guess the rationale would be that the poster would be happy to have a logical flaw or factual error pointed out, so to do so is not really being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/19 "2015-10-13T00:29:53Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Tomndebb is notorious for this kind of behaviour. His MO is to stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. Worse, he does it all with the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the Pope speaking ex cathedra. You two newbies been lurking here for years, or what? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/20 "2015-10-13T00:52:22Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I guess the rationale would be that the poster would be happy to have a logical flaw or factual error pointed out, so to do so is not really being a jerk. Yeah, but the problem arises when you change it to “posts” in general and use over the top insulting language about it. Then it becomes clear you’re just using “posts” as a proxy for the person. It’s exactly the bright line rule that the mods of GD say they don’t like to have. I also sometimes write really mean things and have to tone it down. But I try to actually pull out any insults altogether and get to the bottom of what I think. (Sometimes I get too angry and fail, I admit.) I think that’s the better way to do this, not just inserting “'s posts” or “r posts” in a bunch of places and calling it a day. But, as I’ve been told repeatedly, it’s y’all’s forum and you can do what you want. It’s not like I can’t participate in it somewhat. I just have to put my guard up and avoid the worst threads. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/21 "2015-10-13T00:57:54Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > You two newbies been lurking here for years, or what? I’ve been lurking for about a year, yes. But really, you only need to spend about 15 minutes in GD to figure this stuff out. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479.md?page=2)