# Civility and politeness and the don't be a jerk rule (or the lack thereof) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479 "2015-10-12T21:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/22 "2015-10-13T00:59:57Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Robert163](#): > > I am voicing my frustration. Me being hyperbolic is less relevant than the general point that I am making. If you want to discuss moderator actions in a polite and civil manner, that’s what ATMB is for. If all you want to do is vent or complain about the moderation, that’s not allowed here. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/23 "2015-10-13T01:01:07Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Tithonus](#): > > Tomndebb is notorious for this kind of behaviour. His MO is to stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. Worse, he does it all with the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the Pope speaking ex cathedra. > > Or, as tomndebb himself might say: > > Tomndebb’s…_posts_ are notorious for this kind of…_phrasing_. His MO is to…_craft posts_ which stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. His…_posts_ display the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the…_sort of posts_ the Pope might make if he spoke ex cathedra…_in GD_. > > He’s not fooling anyone. Again, simply complaining about the moderation here is not allowed. Do not do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/24 "2015-10-13T01:15:55Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > You two newbies been lurking here for years, or what? Joined in 2005, then lost track of the site, posting regularly for past two years ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/25 "2015-10-13T01:21:04Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > If all you want to do is vent or complain about the moderation, that’s not allowed here. Since when?! That’s what pretty much every thread in ATMB is. We complain and try to get you to change how you moderated. Sometimes you listen, sometimes you don’t. The forum description is even “For all questions, comments, **and complaints** about the SDMB. This is also the place for test threads.” Hell, I’m complaining right now. Your moderation makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/26 "2015-10-13T01:28:30Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > Again, simply complaining about the moderation here is not allowed. Do not do this again. So how and where hypothetically, might one address the problem of a purely imaginary moderator who, oh, say for the sake of argument, hypothetically makes utterly dickish posts which are just baaaaaaaarely within the rules and that would, _in theory_ would get a normal poster mod-noted at minimum, but also (purely for argument’s sake) can’t be pitted for those dickish posts because he might or might not be acting as a mod when responding? Is there no recourse? Back in the Manhattan days, mods weren’t afraid to mix it up with posters. Later, mods were on a really short leash and at least the theory was that mods couldn’t get too obnoxious with posters, but also couldn’t be pitted or “beaten like a rented mule”. Nowdays, _if_ (purely as a thought experiment) you had a mod who behaved in this naughty, naughty fashion, there would be no way to address it, given your comment above. Hypothetically speaking of course. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/27 "2015-10-13T01:30:56Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > Again, simply complaining about the moderation here is not allowed. Do not do this again. That’s…new. As pointed out, this IS the place to complain about the SDMB, and it always has been (or at least, always since these complaints were moved out of the Pit). What’s not allowed is uncivil complaints, but the OP was very civil. Please revisit this ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/28 "2015-10-13T01:34:13Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > If you want to discuss moderator actions in a polite and civil manner, that’s what ATMB is for. > > If all you want to do is vent or complain about the moderation, that’s not allowed here. ok (that’s all I’m going to say, until, we get an official ruling to exactly what can and can not be said on this section of SDMB) ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/29 "2015-10-13T01:37:14Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > If you want to discuss moderator actions in a polite and civil manner, that’s what ATMB is for. > > If all you want to do is vent or complain about the moderation, that’s not allowed here. > … > Again, simply complaining about the moderation here is not allowed. Do not do this again. This is interesting! Perhaps you should change the forum description, which currently reads (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > **About This Message Board** > For all questions, comments, and **complaints** about the SDMB. This is also the place for test threads. So, the forum is for questions, comments, and complaints, except complaints are not allowed. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/30 "2015-10-13T01:54:52Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Tomndebb is notorious for this kind of behaviour. His MO is to stick religiously to the letter of the GD civility rules while utterly ignoring their spirit. Worse, he does it all with the kind of sanctimonious pomposity one might associate with the Pope speaking ex cathedra. Isn’t this the very definition of civility? Suppose I have some people over and one of the guests is getting sort of drunk and I finally get tired of his shit. I tell him, “I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to ask you to leave.” Well, I mean none of that. First, I’m not sorry, it doesn’t pain me somehow that I “have” to do this, and I ain’t “asking.” I could say “Get the fuck out of my house!” but I am doing it in a polite way to diffuse any confrontation and also to be civil. The two sentences mean the same thing to anyone who understands the English language, but we use the first because that is what people do who respect living in a civilized society. Likewise, “You post contains misinformation” might mean the same thing as “You are a fucking liar.” We say the former to be polite, not to stick to the letter of some rule or act pompously or anything of the sort. It’s called respecting others. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/31 "2015-10-13T02:03:11Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > Again, simply complaining about the moderation here is not allowed. Do not do this again. [QUOTE=About This Message Board] For all questions, comments, and **complaints** about the SDMB. [/QUOTE] Is this a new ruling? If so, you might want to amend the forum description on the main page. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/32 "2015-10-13T02:14:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Isn’t this the very definition of civility? Suppose I have some people over and one of the guests is getting sort of drunk and I finally get tired of his shit. I tell him, “I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to ask you to leave.” Have you read the posts in question? [This one in particular](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18764504&postcount=114) seems to me to be far over the line. In response to Robert’s complaint about tom calling him logically deficient, tom replied: > [@](#): > > Well, you could stop proving my point every time you enter a discussion. That’s not anything like asking a drunk guy to leave. That’s nasty poking at another poster, done outside of the bounds of moderator duty. I reported that post, but nothing happened; unless it’s still under discussion, I’m fairly disappointed at how it’s handled. (I’m not asking for any private information about whether it’s under discussion, FWIW.) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/33 "2015-10-13T02:20:05Z")
This will end in tears. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/34 "2015-10-13T02:34:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, but the problem arises when you change it to “posts” in general and use over the top insulting language about it. Then it becomes clear you’re just using “posts” as a proxy for the person. What first attracted me to this board were the occasional witty, well-turned, utterly vicious posts, in which the average number of syllables per word and complexity of the syntax increased with the ire. So, I think I would find what you call “over the top insulting” entertaining. But I don’t agree that critiques of “posts” can be taken personally; if the criticism is ill-founded, the response should be to call out the failure in evidence or logic in response. To respond to a well structured, finely honed argument thrust into the meat of one’s post with, “That’s mean” is ineffective, ineffectual, and just boring. On the other hand, I don’t find many counter-arguments entertaining, either. I do miss those early days. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/35 "2015-10-13T02:37:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Isn’t this the very definition of civility? Suppose I have some people over and one of the guests is getting sort of drunk and I finally get tired of his shit. I tell him, “I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to ask you to leave.” > > Well, I mean none of that. First, I’m not sorry, it doesn’t pain me somehow that I “have” to do this, and I ain’t “asking.” I could say “Get the fuck out of my house!” but I am doing it in a polite way to diffuse any confrontation and also to be civil. > > The two sentences mean the same thing to anyone who understands the English language, but we use the first because that is what people do who respect living in a civilized society. > > Likewise, “You post contains misinformation” might mean the same thing as “You are a fucking liar.” We say the former to be polite, not to stick to the letter of some rule or act pompously or anything of the sort. It’s called respecting others. I guess that is your version of civility. I think the dictionary definition of civility would be closer to: I disagree with you, that does not make sense to me, I think your facts are incorrect, etc Let’s go to google… Civility: formal politeness and courtesy in behavior or speech. > [@](#): > > We say the former to be polite, not to stick to the letter of some rule or act pompously or anything of the sort. It’s called respecting others. So how is saying… you comment is logically deficient and your posts suffer from a poverty of debating skills… how is that respectful? Look… really… SDMB is the way it is… but… we can’t even agree on the working definition of “civility”. It gets confusing… what you can say in what section of SDMB. The most consistent thing and logically or morally coherent thing to do is have the BBQ Pitt, (where you can say anything, but not C\*nt, more rules within rules)… where you can say anything then the complete rest of the board really should have one set of rules for civility. That do not include snarky remarks fit in “under the rules of that section.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/36 "2015-10-13T02:41:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Have you read the posts in question? [This one in particular](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18764504&postcount=114) seems to me to be far over the line. In response to Robert’s complaint about tom calling him logically deficient, tom replied: > That’s not anything like asking a drunk guy to leave. That’s nasty poking at another poster, done outside of the bounds of moderator duty. I reported that post, but nothing happened; unless it’s still under discussion, I’m fairly disappointed at how it’s handled. (I’m not asking for any private information about whether it’s under discussion, FWIW.) Ah…I stand corrected. That really was uncalled for. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/37 "2015-10-13T02:48:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s…new. Actually, it’s not new. It’s not anywhere close to new. It used to be that you could pit moderators, but many years ago the rules were changed and that’s no longer allowed. The rules changed long before I became a mod, so I don’t know exactly when they changed. If you have a complaint, you can discuss it politely. You can’t just bitch, though. That’s been the rules here for a very, very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/38 "2015-10-13T02:51:16Z")
> [@j666](#): > > What first attracted me to this board were the occasional witty, well-turned, utterly vicious posts, in which the average number of syllables per word and complexity of the syntax increased with the ire. So, I think I would find what you call “over the top insulting” entertaining. > > But I don’t agree that critiques of “posts” can be taken personally; if the criticism is ill-founded, the response should be to call out the failure in evidence or logic in response. To respond to a well structured, finely honed argument thrust into the meat of one’s post with, “That’s mean” is ineffective, ineffectual, and just boring. > > On the other hand, I don’t find many counter-arguments entertaining, either. > > I do miss those early days. Yes And when I am an a red hot tirade against some religious group I don’t like and someone says… (in one way or another) hey, thats kind of bigoted, or, hey, why are you hating on religious people… I don’t get upset… the comment is probably accurate. Well, I don’t get upset… I get frustrated and my feelings a lit bit hurt but mainly, I realize the comment is probably warranted and I am probably being rude and I probably deserved some criticism. If anything, I feel more guilty than I do mad. But to have moderators make snarky remarks and “still not break the rules” and have other moderators and the board in general tolerate/accept it… ok, it is your clubhouse, fine, but don’t - act - like you (as a community) are interested in civility when really, it’s a snark contest. I think this type of hypocrisy is both (1)transparent and (2)almost universally dispopular. If this board wants to combat ignorance, fine, thats great… do it without being a jerk. But if the objective is some big 3 day long “debate” of snarkfest and condescension… at least be honest as to that is what the (unofficial) purpose of SDMB really is. Final note: I’ve been posting here regularly for 2 years or so. In that time I’ve had 5 or 10 warnings. For all but 1 of them I thought the warning was valid/justified. Most of the time the moderator’s comments to me have been, that comment was over the line. Please don’t do it again or we will issue a warning. Again, almost all of those were justified, I earned it and I’m glad it was a “don’t do that” and not a warning. I am not saying the moderators or overbearing or heavy handed, in fact, my opinion is the opposite, overall they do a very good job. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/39 "2015-10-13T02:57:54Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > So how and where hypothetically, might one address the problem of a purely imaginary moderator who, oh, say for the sake of argument, hypothetically makes utterly dickish posts which are just baaaaaaaarely within the rules and that would, _in theory_ would get a normal poster mod-noted at minimum, but also (purely for argument’s sake) can’t be pitted for those dickish posts because he might or might not be acting as a mod when responding? Is there no recourse? You address it politely, without insulting the moderator in question. Simple. You say “I think this moderator comment was out of line” maybe followed by a quote. You don’t say “This moderator always makes dickish comments.” That’s insulting the moderator. Just about anything can be discussed, as long as you do it politely. You can discuss complaints. You can’t bitch like it’s a mini version of the pit here. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/40 "2015-10-13T02:58:54Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Actually, it’s not new. It’s not anywhere close to new. > > It used to be that you could pit moderators, but many years ago the rules were changed and that’s no longer allowed. The rules changed long before I became a mod, so I don’t know exactly when they changed. > > If you have a complaint, you can discuss it politely. You can’t just bitch, though. > > That’s been the rules here for a very, very long time. ETA: We were typing at the same time, you answerd my question/complaint with this post [36](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18767927&postcount=36) Engineer: I think you are doing a good job of handling this situation. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/41 "2015-10-13T04:20:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > My complaint is the overall tone of SDMB as a whole, and, more specifically the idea that “don’t be a jerk” is not paid attention too much at all. > > Also… and I admit that I am not the nicest person and that I am negative biased and cynical… I’ll make no denial of that at all. Indeed, I need to improve. But, I guess my attitude is… I really don’t like it when people hide behind rules to make snarky condescending remarks. Whatever I have to say to a person I am pretty direct. My attitude does not change much from section to section on SDMB or online vs offline. There exists a satellite board with lower civility standards than the SDMB. There exists a satellite board with higher civility standards than the SDMB. FTR. And actually “Don’t be a jerk” _is_ paid attention to, it’s just that it’s a pretty lax standard here IMHO. You are not allowed to spam. You are suppose to obey moderator instructions. If you have a beef with a poster (or, using best practices some sort of personal issue) politely take it to PM or take it to the Pit. Hitting your main point: Robert. Some arguments are really bad. They deserve a Straight Dope smackdown. It’s part of what we’re here for: check out the masthead. Yes, yes, sometimes attacks on arguments are used as backhanded slaps against the poster. But guess what? If they have content, _they can be responded to with a better argument_. Or with extended politeness, even if feigned. And again, if you don’t like it there are message boards with higher civility bars. Weirdly, this is one of the more polite places on the internet _and it’s like a tavern in the bad part of town._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479.md?page=3)