# Civility and politeness and the don't be a jerk rule (or the lack thereof) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479 "2015-10-12T21:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/62 "2015-10-14T16:18:07Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Scumpup](#): > > Clearly, you don’t understand what it means to be a mod. Their incredible work and self-sacrifice puts them on an entirely different plane from you and me. To you, this board is a pleasure…something you enjoy doing. To the mods, it is a Sisyphusian task. Only the hill is on fire and the boulder is encrusted with broken glass and there is a vast mob of hooting, screaming apes throwing shit at them. But they do it anyway because that is just the kind of people they are. So here they are, day in day out, doing this great and important work and small, low people want to tear them apart for the odd lapse in manners. Small, low people who would probably bitch at a fireman for not knocking first before carrying them down five flights of stairs covered with poisonous snakes in a burning building. This board is a mighty monument to knowledge and the mods are the cyclopean granite blocks from which it is built. Guys like you and me? We’re smudges of bird shit on that monument that will disappear with the next rain. A mod get a warning? What is _wrong_ with you? I’m not sure if you were trying to be funny or if you really meant this to be very insultingly sarcastic. I’ve received a few post reports from folks who thought the latter, so I know I’m not the only one who saw that possible interpretation. If that’s how it was intended, do not do this again in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/63 "2015-10-14T17:44:31Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > I’m not sure if you were trying to be funny or if you really meant this to be very insultingly sarcastic. I’ve received a few post reports from folks who thought the latter, so I know I’m not the only one who saw that possible interpretation. If that’s how it was intended, do not do this again in this forum. Wait–he was doing a _toned down_ version of some of the mod-whining that went on here until recently. One mod said “We [mods] all get our turn in the piñata”, Tuba (and/or Lynn) would post constantly about how they were “beaten like a rented mule”. Or one of my favorites: “A lot of what is thrown at moderators in the daily course of business would have been unthinkable back in the day. Mostly we’re expected to take it unless it’s at gutter levels. While we can’t be thin skinned – and I don’t believe we are – we shouldn’t have to wade in filth either…” So why is it insulting to use the same kinds of hysterical rhetoric that’s used by the “victims” to describe their own “plight”? Also, since when have sarcasm and snark been forbidden in ATMB? Here’s the clearest ruling ever on it and it’s been reiterated in later threads ('cause I keep linking to it). [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11300755&postcount=24) > [@Fenris in response to another Tomndebb post](#): > > So…just to be clear sarcasm and smarminess is allowed in ATMB? To which Dex, Admin hat firmly on replied: > [@Dex](#): > > Yes, and always has been… as long as the sarcasm and smarminess doesn’t cross the line into being personal insult. [And here it is, repeated again this year and Ed posted after without overturning/changing it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18095744&postcount=26). So up until the last few days, “sarcasm and smarminess” are and always have been just fine. If you guys have decided to overturn this absolutely unambiguous ruling, that’s all well and good, but howsabout actually posting a sticky saying the rules have been changed? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/64 "2015-10-14T18:25:06Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > So up until the last few days, “sarcasm and smarminess” are and always have been just fine. If you guys have decided to overturn this absolutely unambiguous ruling, that’s all well and good, but howsabout actually posting a sticky saying the rules have been changed? You must have missed the memo. I knew as soon as I saw it, that if I posted that, I would be permanently banned from the forum.’ I also knew it was “being a jerk” to post it. Even with a smiley face. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/65 "2015-10-14T19:11:29Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait–he was doing a _toned down_ version of some of the mod-whining that went on here until recently. One mod said “We [mods] all get our turn in the piñata”, Tuba (and/or Lynn) would post constantly about how they were “beaten like a rented mule”. Or one of my favorites: “A lot of what is thrown at moderators in the daily course of business would have been unthinkable back in the day. Mostly we’re expected to take it unless it’s at gutter levels. While we can’t be thin skinned – and I don’t believe we are – we shouldn’t have to wade in filth either…” > > So why is it insulting to use the same kinds of hysterical rhetoric that’s used by the “victims” to describe their own “plight”? > > Also, since when have sarcasm and snark been forbidden in ATMB? Here’s the clearest ruling ever on it and it’s been reiterated in later threads ('cause I keep linking to it). > [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11300755&postcount=24) > > To which Dex, Admin hat firmly on replied: > [And here it is, repeated again this year and Ed posted after without overturning/changing it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18095744&postcount=26). > So up until the last few days, “sarcasm and smarminess” are and always have been just fine. If you guys have decided to overturn this absolutely unambiguous ruling, that’s all well and good, but howsabout actually posting a sticky saying the rules have been changed? Agreed. There was nothing forbidden about that post. I thought it was well done. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/66 "2015-10-14T19:17:38Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > hysterical rhetoric that’s used by the “victims” to describe their own “plight”? It seems a beautiful recursion to use hysterical rhetoric to decry something as hysterical rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/67 "2015-10-14T20:13:50Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > [And here it is, repeated again this year and Ed posted after without overturning/changing it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18095744&postcount=26). Link not working. Should be [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18095744&postcount=26](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18095744&postcount=26) ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/68 "2015-10-14T21:42:23Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > You must have missed the memo. I apparently missed it too. I also thought Scumpup was being serious. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/69 "2015-10-14T23:17:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > So up until the last few days, “sarcasm and smarminess” are and always have been just fine. If you guys have decided to overturn this absolutely unambiguous ruling, that’s all well and good, but howsabout actually posting a sticky saying the rules have been changed? As **Dex** said back then, they’re just fine… _unless they cross the line into being insulting._ Granted, where that line is is pretty subjective, but you’re mistaken when you say they’ve always been “just fine.” The very ruling you’re quoting plainly states that there is a limit. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/70 "2015-10-14T23:57:39Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > I’m not sure if you were trying to be funny or if you really meant this to be very insultingly sarcastic. I’ve received a few post reports from folks who thought the latter, so I know I’m not the only one who saw that possible interpretation. If that’s how it was intended, do not do this again in this forum. A guy praises the mods, and he gets his wrist slapped. I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/71 "2015-10-15T00:01:57Z")
You can say that (those last 4 words) again. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/72 "2015-10-15T00:13:39Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > A guy praises the mods, and he gets his wrist slapped. > > I don’t get it. I’m pretty sure it was meant sarcastically. > [@Is there a such thing as rude moderating?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-as-rude-moderating/694601/74): > > In fairness to the staff here, it is only a portion of them who are petty chickenshitphiliacs. It’s the same situation you see with cops, though. The ones who aren’t close ranks with and protect the ones who are. Interesting when you consider that they are unpaid employees. Must mean a lot to them to have that title under their usernames. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/73 "2015-10-15T00:22:14Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m pretty sure it was meant sarcastically. Do people do that here? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/74 "2015-10-15T00:54:13Z")
The purpose of ATMB is to discuss board issues, and part of that is resolving problems here. Snark and sarcasm tend to be extremely counter-productive towards the goal of resolving issues. As such, I’ve decided to kick this around the mod loop to see if we need to make any changes regarding our enforcement of politeness and civility with respect to snark and sarcasm. If you have any comments from a user’s point of view, feel free to add them here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/75 "2015-10-15T00:54:39Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Do people do that here? Sure. About 20% as much as they try to. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/76 "2015-10-15T00:58:45Z")
I do understand what it means to be a mod, as I am one on another board. Modding is pretty thankless, like sweeping your sidewalk, but I do it for the same reason, to maintain my community. The thing is, it’s not my board. Disagreements with my decisions are dealt with publicly, with simple explanations and no retaliation. Reported posts get deleted, unless there is absolutely no possible offense to be taken, or they’re about me. The default is “Let the posters post.” I would be thrilled to read to posts like **Scumpup’s** , rather than some tedious point by point refutation and dissertation, or worse, that even more tedious whining. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/77 "2015-10-15T01:24:03Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > A guy praises the mods, and he gets his wrist slapped. > > I don’t get it. I hope he was being sarcastic, which is the way I took it. Otherwise, it looks like he was trying to get brownie points with the mods. LMAO if the latter was the case. > [@j666](#): > > Modding is pretty thankless, like sweeping your sidewalk, but I do it for the same reason, to maintain my community. AIUI, they don’t get paid here, but they all get this huge health benefits package after a certain amount of years at SD. I notice they all are hush hush about that, and you never see any talking about it. Anyway, it’s not like they are not getting something out of it. I kid, I kid. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/78 "2015-10-15T01:47:00Z")
Snark and sarcasm are 2 big reasons why I am here. I enjoy reading them. On the extremely rare occasion or two in the past 8 years when I was lucky enough to land an appropriately timed and aimed comment, I remember a small frisson of excitement passing through me. Having said that, this forum _is_ for bringing up issues and resolving them. I would support **e\_c\_g** ’s idea of reigning it in, on the understanding that we are not standing at the top of a slippery slope of ultimately doing away with snark in other forums. I do think **j666** ’s dread of whining and endless point-by-point refutations would come to pass. Ha! Just kidding! It already pretty much is that way. Go read the other active thread here as proof. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/79 "2015-10-15T02:22:19Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The purpose of ATMB is to discuss board issues, and part of that is resolving problems here. Snark and sarcasm tend to be extremely counter-productive towards the goal of resolving issues. As such, I’ve decided to kick this around the mod loop to see if we need to make any changes regarding our enforcement of politeness and civility with respect to snark and sarcasm. > > If you have any comments from a user’s point of view, feel free to add them here. I appreciate you asking as your standard seems to be radically different than, say, Dex’s.\* If you’re taking poster input, I suggest that looser standards would be better, even though I suspect we disagree on that. The mod/poster interaction was healthier (IMO) when a poster could take a mod to the pit _and vice versa_. Euty’s pitting of Liberal was a classic. Ever since the ruling that mods couldn’t pit posters and vice versa, there’s been a growing divide. My suggestion: Mods can be pitted for moderator actions. Posters can be pitted by mods…HOWEVER…ATMB is reserved for politely discussing a mod decision in hopes of better understanding, a change of decision, etc. So if I wanted to tell DavidB that him modding me for calling someone a racist in GD makes him a dumbfuck, great. He can then join me in the Pit (or not) and call me a goat-raper. But if I want him to reconsider, or reconsider his position, ATMB is the way to go. I doubt that this idea is gonna go over well, but I wanted to put it out there as I think it would reduce a lot of poster and mod frustration. The Pit exists because sometimes you don’t want a civil point-by-point discussion, you just want to call someone a name. Let mods _use_ it (and let posters use it on mods as mods too.) \*Yours, on the other hand, is far more consistent. With Dex I could never figure out where the line was. With you, and some of the newer mods, I can. But your line is far…‘stricter’ than Dex’s was (most of the time). ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/80 "2015-10-15T03:04:17Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > […] The Pit exists because sometimes you don’t want a civil point-by-point discussion, you just want to call someone a name. Let mods _use_ it (and let posters use it on mods as mods too.) > […] Wow. _You_ haven’t been reading the Pit lately, have you? It’s almost as though the posters who do their endless round and rounds in GD just keep doing it wherever they waft. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479/81 "2015-10-15T04:38:58Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Having said that, this forum _is_ for bringing up issues and resolving them. I would support **e\_c\_g** ’s idea of reigning it in, on the understanding that we are not standing at the top of a slippery slope of ultimately doing away with snark in other forums. _REINING_ it in, dammit. It’s a metaphor for controlling draught animals\*, _NOT_ for running a realm. I can’t believe I have to bring this up twice in the same thread. In fact, since it’s the Dope, I can’t believe I have to bring it up EVER! \*(or draft animals, if you prefer) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civility-and-politeness-and-the-dont-be-a-jerk-rule-or-the-lack-thereof/734479.md?page=5)