# Civilization collapse and easily mined metals **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952 "2016-07-02T20:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/21 "2016-07-05T16:51:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t know the extent of Native American pottery craft, there were a number of cultures spread over two continents I’m referring specifically to the Maryland groups. I know they were part of the Woodlands tradition, which in general would mean wood-fired, fairly brittle pottery with sand or limestone temper - no kiln, not what I would call a “strong pottery tradition” - but I don’t know the Maryland specifics, which was why I asked **tonyfop** for detail. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/22 "2016-07-05T17:07:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m referring specifically to the Maryland groups. I know they were part of the Woodlands tradition, which in general would mean wood-fired, fairly brittle pottery with sand or limestone temper - no kiln, not what I would call a “strong pottery tradition” - but I don’t know the Maryland specifics, which was why I asked **tonyfop** for detail. I’m sure they did not use what would be recognized as a pottery kiln. Like many North Americans they would have fired pottery in a hole in the ground or in a ring of rocks, using wood coals, not pre-made charcoal. That area is so rich in iron the streams run red when it rains, but there’s no way their pottery making would have led to smelting iron or even copper. ETA: Here is a website[saying the Lenape did not bake pottery even in a hole in the ground](http://www.njwomenshistory.org/discover/topics/art/lenape-pottery-making/), just covering it with burning wood and corncobs. ---
**Author:** ![Nefario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/59ef9b/32.png) [@Nefario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nefario)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/23 "2016-07-05T17:19:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Had Native Americans developed copper technology they would have been closer to smelting iron. See: Guns, Germs, and Steel… The North American Indians never had any suitable draft animals to amplify their physical endeavors (or even any domesticated animals probably) so they never got beyond hunter-gathering-gardening. They couldn’t support specialists that could develop higher technology. It may be of interest that Kentucky - Indian central - was a leading iron producer up until the Civil War! There are areas of free iron ore similar to those decribed in Maryland. [https://www.uky.edu/KGS/im/ironore.htm](https://www.uky.edu/KGS/im/ironore.htm) [http://www.oldindustry.org/KY\_HTML/Ky\_Fitchburg.html](http://www.oldindustry.org/KY_HTML/Ky_Fitchburg.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/24 "2016-07-05T17:27:15Z")
The overwhelming majority of North Americans were farmers in 1491. It’s simply false to suggest they were mostly hunter-gatherers with some gardening thrown in. The whole Mississippi basin was covered in farming villages and towns. How do you think Squanto could have taught the Pilgrims how to grow maize if he wasn’t from a farming culture? ---
**Author:** ![Nefario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/59ef9b/32.png) [@Nefario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nefario)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/25 "2016-07-05T17:45:40Z")
Huh? Struck a nerve somehow I guess… Squanto could help the Pilgrims because he had already spent YEARS learning English on trips to London. He was born ~100 years after your 1491 date BTW. > **[Squanto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto)** > > Tisquantum (/tɪsˈkwɒntəm/; c. 1585 (±10 years?) – late November 1622 O.S.), more commonly known as Squanto (/ˈskwɒntoʊ/), was a member of the Patuxet tribe best known for being an early liaison between the Native American population in Southern New England and the Mayflower Pilgrims who made their settlement at the site of Tisquantum's former summer village. The Patuxet tribe had lived on the western coast of Cape Cod Bay, but they were wiped out by an epidemic infection, likely brought by pre... Daniel Boone might disagree with you. > **[Boonesborough Settlement – Goodman History and Genealogy](https://www.goodmanhistory.com/america/kentucky-goodman-families/kentucky-history/boonesborough-settlement/)** > > Settlement of Boonesborough The Kentucky Trail Blazers Background The following is a greatly condensed and summarized version of information from "Daniel Boone, The Life and Legend of an American Pioneer", by John Mack Faragher. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/26 "2016-07-05T18:43:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m referring specifically to the Maryland groups. I know they were part of the Woodlands tradition, which in general would mean wood-fired, fairly brittle pottery with sand or limestone temper - no kiln, not what I would call a “strong pottery tradition” - but I don’t know the Maryland specifics, which was why I asked **tonyfop** for detail. Oh, I am not at all versed on the local Native cultures. I am originally from New York, I just live in Maryland. The first thing I noticed at the beach was iron laying around everywhere, and I noticed a layer of it in the Clay Cliffs. I never did any research into it, but I am finding the info given by the other dopers really interesting. Sorry for the hijack, on the OP’s point, we have tons of iron here on the Western Shore of the Chesapeake Bay, just waiting for the Apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/27 "2016-07-05T19:25:35Z")
> [@Nefario](#): > > Huh? Struck a nerve somehow I guess… > > Squanto could help the Pilgrims because he had already spent YEARS learning English on trips to London. He was born ~100 years after your 1491 date BTW. > [Squanto - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto) > > Daniel Boone might disagree with you. > [Boonesborough Settlement – Goodman History and Genealogy](http://www.goodmanhistory.com/america/kentucky-goodman-families/kentucky-history/boonesborough-settlement.html) Native Americans were agricultural. They planted corn and other crops. Even as hunters they had thinned forests to attract game and make hunting easier. There were many permanent settlements as well. What they lacked was any advanced technology, particular to this discussion they lacked hard metal. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952/28 "2016-07-05T19:49:03Z")
> [@Nefario](#): > > Huh? Struck a nerve somehow I guess… > > Squanto could help the Pilgrims because he had already spent YEARS learning English on trips to London. He was born ~100 years after your 1491 date BTW. > [Squanto - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto) > > Daniel Boone might disagree with you. > [Boonesborough Settlement – Goodman History and Genealogy](http://www.goodmanhistory.com/america/kentucky-goodman-families/kentucky-history/boonesborough-settlement.html) Yes, Squanto had crossed the Atlantic both ways a couple of times. My point is, his home village was at Plymouth Rock, but everyone in his farming village had died of disease. Leaving a convenient place for the Pilgrims to set up a farming village. Remember how the Pilgrims dug up stored maize? Where do you think that came from? It came from farmers who farmed there before they all died. And yes, by Daniel Boone’s time the agricultural people that occupied the Mississippi Valley had been devastated by multiple waves of pandemic diseases. But look at the cite you sent me. What was the ascribed name of the Indian Chief that Boone fought against? Cornstalk. Even by the 1600s the densely packed farming villages described by the early Spanish explorers were gone. The reason I brought up the Pilgrims is that every kindergartner in America knows the stories of how the Pilgrims were saved from starvation by learning native American farming techniques, yet at the same time most American adults somehow believe that Indians were nomadic hunter-gatherers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization-collapse-and-easily-mined-metals/758952.md?page=1)