# Civilization **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281 "2002-08-30T13:38:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/1 "2002-08-30T13:38:05Z")
Is Egypt the oldest recorded civilization? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/2 "2002-08-30T15:01:24Z")
No. It is one of the first but there are written languages (important for recording things) that predate Egypt by, IIRC about 1000 years. Proto-Elamic predates Egyptian writing, and some Cuneiform may as well. I have to admit that I am going from memory based on the appearance of written language. I just bought a book on this but haven’t had time to read it . Egypt gets more than their fair share of attention because of the vast quantity of monumental architecture that they left behind, and the fact that their language is now, essentially, totally understood. Perhaps our resident Cuneiform hobbyist will stop by and correct my errors. If not, I’ll post again later after I have had time to look this up. Now, if you mean "was there some sort of Proto-Civilization (Atlantis or whatever) in the Graham Hancock definition, the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Jabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@Jabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jabba)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/3 "2002-08-30T18:27:38Z")
_The Penguin History of the World_ ( J. M. Roberts) says “The best case for the first appearance of something which is recognizably civilisation has been made for the southern part of Mesopotamia”. More information on Mesopotamia can be found [here](http://www.penncharter.com/Student/meso/) and [here](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook03.html). ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/4 "2002-08-30T19:08:42Z")
Depends on what you mean by Civilization. Starcevo was one of the earliest farming settlements, occuring in the Balklands around 6000 BCE. By around 5000 BCE, clay tablets were used to keep a system of notations developed. Rice farmers created settlements in ancient China as far back as 6500 BCE also. The first cities (which is what most people would consider civilization), appeared in Mesopotamia. The Uruk period, named after the largest cities ran from 4300- 3100 BCE. Comparatively, while farming begain on the Nile around the same period as the rest of the world (6500-6000 BCE), City states did not emerge until around 3000 BCE. IIRC it was around 3300, though the 1st Dynasty didn’t techincally start untill 2920. Centuries before the pyramids were built. No, Egypt is far from the Oldest Civilization. In fact, I think it could be safely said that China developed its first cities around the same time as the Egyptians. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/5 "2002-08-30T19:46:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*Depends on what you mean by Civilization. > > Starcevo was one of the earliest farming settlements, occuring in the Balklands around 6000 BCE. By around 5000 BCE, clay tablets were used to keep a system of notations developed. > > Rice farmers created settlements in ancient China as far back as 6500 BCE also. > \*\* You are right. It does depend on the definiton of civilization that the OP was using. Settling in cities and the domestication of plants and animals happened long before writing was on the scene. Hell, in the Americas there was the beginings of domestication of things like Teosinte and Guinea Pigs as far back as 7000 BCE. Or is it 7000 BP?. By this definition Egypt is still not the first. Since the OP mentioned “recorded civilization”, I assumed writing, and again Egypt is not the first. Egypt, does have that whole King Tut sort of thing working PR for it. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/6 "2002-08-30T23:53:34Z")
I meant written civilization. I’m actually really interested in pre-egypt religions and the like (maybe legends and what not). Jabba- Is that penguin book easy to read? (interesting that is, not like a textbook). If anyone has any other recommendations for books on a pre-egypt civilization please list it. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/7 "2002-08-31T00:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*I meant written civilization. I’m actually really interested in pre-Egypt religions and the like (maybe legends and what not). \*\* The emergence of writing: \* Mesopotamian cuneiform circa 3100 BCE. Proto-Elamite circa 3000 BCE. Egyptian hieroglyphs circa 3000 BCE. Indus Valley script circa 2500 BCE. - source: Lost Languages - The Enigma of The World’s Undeciphered Scripts by Andrew Robinson. Pre Egyptian choices are, as you can see, limited. Limited if you want to read actual text, anyways. If you want to get an idea of culture and religion in a pre-writing era, than you will have to turn to archaeological publications. Archaeology will study the material remains of a culture or even just a settlement and try to extrapolate the mindset and actions of the people who lived there. I know what you are thinking - maybe archaeologists are just making stuff up. Of course that possibility does exist, but many items that are found in prehistoric (pre writing) cultures can be related to similar items in cultures with writing. A very good place to start with is _ **Dolni Vestonice** _ and the [Venus figures](http://www.hominids.com/donsmaps/dolnivenus.html) that the site is famous for. Unfortunately, this site that I linked to, while is has great pictures of Venus figures, doesn’t really talk about the ritual context that surrounds many of the figures. That wil be something that you can research on you own. However, if you want to know some of comparable sites and items, I might be able to help. Good luck. It was something similar that got me started on the road to a degree in archaeology. ---
**Author:** ![Jabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@Jabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jabba)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/8 "2002-08-31T10:57:03Z")
**Meatros** : The book is written for the intelligent general reader, so not it’s not a textbook. Equally it is by no means light reading. It is roughly 1100 pages ( in paperback) densely packed with fascinatinf facts. It runs from the evolution of _Homo sapiens_ to German reunification so is not the best book if you are only interested in ancient civilisations. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/9 "2002-08-31T19:54:09Z")
Is there any evidence that cave paintings contain any symbolic content? I know the conventional wisdom is that cave paintings are just ‘art’, meant to depict scenes of life. But could there be more to them? Are any of them complex enough that they can be considered to be conveying important information like hunting techniques or locations of important resources? If so, could this be considered ‘writing’? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilization/126281/10 "2002-09-01T17:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Is there any evidence that cave paintings contain any symbolic content? > > I know the conventional wisdom is that cave paintings are just ‘art’, meant to depict scenes of life. \*\* Actually, conventional wisdom indicates that it is combination of “art for arts sake” and imagery full of ritual meaning. In the book _Images of the Past_, Price and Feinman give us an example of both sides of the debate. On cave paintings being art for the sake of art: > [@](#): > > The quality of the paintings is such that we can assume that there were recognized artists in the societies of the Upper Paleolithic. The cave art is generally carefully planned and skillfully executed, capturing both the movement and the power of the animals that rendered. It is not grafitti, nor is it hastily skecthed. Cave paintings possible ritualistic nature: > [@](#): > > The emphasis on pregnant animals has often been considered to refect a concern with fertility and reproduction, the bounty of nature, and an awarness of the replenishment of the herds on which these people depended for food. Others point to the exagerated hips and haunches of the animals and spears in flight and argue for a concern for the hunt for meat. Hunting rites and the ritual killings of animals before a hunt might magically help ensure success in the quest for food. I should point out, that the majority of paleolithic cave paintings are representations of animals. Paintings of people are quite rare. [This site](http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/clottes/) seems to be pretty good. However, figure 7 on page 2 is refered to as a “half man half bison”, while other sources refer to [similar images](http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/clottes/fig10.html) (lower righthand corner) as being humans wearing animal skins. In short, the paintings were not depicting locations of resources and not a method of writing, biut did they communicate anything? Most assuredly they did.