# Civilized Prisons, Anyone **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936 "2006-02-17T12:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/41 "2006-02-21T00:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Call me crazy, but I think it’s cruel and unusual punishment to make a man share a cell with someone who is a homicidal maniac … We’re not idiots. We don’t make people share a cell with a homicidal maniac. We make people share a cell with a guy who sold drugs or stole cars or maybe even killed some guy in a barfight. But we screen everybody who comes into prison and we separate out the ones we think are likely to kill their cellmates. > [@](#): > > saying there’s little forcible rape, it’s just normal anal sex accomplished by intimidation or extortion, Lissa … was that a joke? I hope so … unless you really think a guy should get off of a rape charge by saying “I never got violent with the woman, I just held a knife to her throat and told her I’d kill her if she resisted” … No, it’s more like “So you’re upset because those other guys are stealing all your stuff and you’d like me to protect you? Well what are you going to do for me?” ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/42 "2006-02-21T00:49:29Z")
> [@intention](#): > > What can we do to reduce inmate on inmate violence? (saying there’s little forcible rape, it’s just normal anal sex accomplished by intimidation or extortion, Lissa … was that a joke? I hope so … unless you really think a guy should get off of a rape charge by saying “I never got violent with the woman, I just held a knife to her throat and told her I’d kill her if she resisted” …) > [@Little Nemo](#): > > No, it’s more like “So you’re upset because those other guys are stealing all your stuff and you’d like me to protect you? Well what are you going to do for me?” Exactly. The scenario that **intention** mentioned (i.e holding a knife to the throat) is forcible and violent rape, with the expressed intent of bodily harm if the victim doesn’t comply. What **Little Nemo** said is the most common way sex is coerced. “I’ll tell the guards about that gallon of hooch you have in the store room if you don’t have sex with me,” or “Those guys are going to beat you unless I protect you.” The biggest problem is that young prisoners often don’t want to admit they’re being pressured into sex. If they would approach a guard and report it, the inmate would be put in protective custody, and the guards would tell everyone that he was being “locked up” because he broke a rule (so no one would think he was snitching.) If need be, he could be moved to another institution. If it could be proved, the offender would be punished. Prisons take rape (forcible or coercive) very seriously. Guards go through many sessions of sensitivity training on how to spot, and deal with, victims of it. > [@intention](#): > > However, I would suggest that the reason that there were more inmate-on-guard injuries at the Supermax is the same reason the inmates are in the Supermax in the first place … because they are so violent. I don’t think it has to do with whether they are 1 or 2 to a cell. Not always. Sometimes, guys go to Super Max because of their notoriety or because they’re associated with groups that are a high security threat. One guy I can remember went to Super Max because he was a martial arts expert. He sued repeatedly to get sent back to a lower security level, and I have to agree with his stance that just because he COULD do something didn’t mean he should be punished as if he HAD done it. But yes, the majority of them are in there because they have proven to be too violent to be in general prison populations. > [@](#): > > What can we do to reduce prisons being a school for crime? Nothing. It’s impossible. You put three people in a room, and they’re going to start chatting about their jobs and discovering what they have in common. They’ll compare incidents in their lives, and tell funny stories about times when things went wrong for them, as well as tales of their successes. It’s human nature-- inmates are people, too. By the way, you don’t have to be in prison to get training in criminal behavior. All you have to do is know other criminals, which most of these guys do. (Hell, a lot of them come from families with extensive criminal backgrounds.) > [@](#): > > My plan may be junk … OK, fair enough, I’ve been wrong many times, but what’s the better plan? Call me crazy, but I think it’s cruel and unusual punishment to make a man share a cell with someone who is a homicidal maniac … Most people who murder are not serial killers. They did it because of a set of extraordinary circumstances unlikely to occur again. The mad-dog killers who will hurt anyone who looks at them funny go to higher security prisons, just like **Little Nemo** said. Personally, I’d rather share a cell with a murderer than a guy in prison for assault. (Last post I’ll probably be able to do before I go-- I’ll catch up with you guys later.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/43 "2006-02-21T01:03:54Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > Wouldn’t it send the prisoners insane? The only way to stop that happening would be to allow them out to socialise, and then that’s just blown the reasons that you had for solitary confinement: violence and propagating crime. A system of total solitary confinement was tried at Eastern State Penitentiary, built in the 1820s in Pennsylvania. Each prisoner had his own little excercise yard beyind his cell, and had no other diversion available to him than reading the Bible. IIRC this sent many a man insane; apparently humans cannot live without contact from others. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/44 "2006-02-21T02:13:07Z")
Last time I heard, most violent homicidal maniacs ARE kept in solitary cells of their own-like Charles Manson. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/45 "2006-02-21T02:31:23Z")
**Casdave** , **Little Nemo** , and **Lissa** know what they’re talking about. In general, I’d guess that the real problem inmates are less than 5% of the population. The rest mainly want to get along (on their terms), be left alone, work on their legal appeals or lawsuits :rolleyes:, and do their time. Oh, and get lower bunks and special diets and extra meals and extra mattresses and orthopedic shoes and knee braces and limitations so they don’t have to work if they don’t want to and… Oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/46 "2006-02-21T03:33:45Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > **Casdave** , **Little Nemo** , and **Lissa** know what they’re talking about. > > In general, I’d guess that the real problem inmates are less than 5% of the population. The rest mainly want to get along (on their terms), be left alone, work on their legal appeals or lawsuits :rolleyes:, and do their time. > > Oh, and get lower bunks and special diets and extra meals and extra mattresses and orthopedic shoes and knee braces and limitations so they don’t have to work if they don’t want to and… > > Oh, never mind. Don’t laugh out loud too often on this subject, but that was GOOD! 😃 w. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/47 "2006-02-21T15:48:27Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > If you don’t want to listen to Casdave, are you prepared to listen to me? I’ve been working in US prisons for 24 years now. > > Things obviously aren’t perfect inside prisons. You’re not going to concentrate the worst elements of society into a single environment and not have problems. But the problems are manageable and are being managed. And I know this because I manage a prison. And you should listen to him. I have. I’m a former cop; SWMBO has worked extensively in the area of medication dispensation for nursing homes and clinics, including prisons/jails. Hearing the two of them discussing issues of prisoner management and control from different perspectives is really interesting. I’ll occasionally chip in on the conversation from the street aspect, because I’ve had to bust people who fought me for the sole reason that they did not want to go back into the jail because of the lousy conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/48 "2006-02-21T17:15:54Z")
> [@intention](#): > > My plan may be junk Insofar as it seems to have been inspired by watching prison movies and TV shows… yes. The _real_ solution, of course, is to let Tony Soprano head-shoot a few people. That’ll keep the others in line. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/49 "2006-02-21T20:19:53Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Insofar as it seems to have been inspired by watching prison movies and TV shows… yes. > The _real_ solution, of course, is to let Tony Soprano head-shoot a few people. That’ll keep the others in line. Jeez, Bryan, comment on the plan, but why abuse me? I don’t watch either prison movies or tv shows, **that’s your fantasy** , bro’, don’t accuse me of it … w. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/50 "2006-02-21T21:25:47Z")
One issue in trying to reduce inmate violence is that a recent study reported on the BBC, carried out by Southampton University I think, reckons that around 80% of prisoners have personality disorders of varying degrees. Most will be very low levels, such as selfishness, or a lack of empathy, others quite frankly( this applies to UK only, other countries may be differant) should be in centres for mental treatment. The reason for the latter is that we closed most of our Mental Health intitutions and didn’t finance the support mechanisms properly that would allow such folk to function in society (but hey, the rest of the population got a tax cut so three big cheers for Maggie Thatcher) The level of learning difficulties in UK prisons is astonishing, at over 60%, but when you couple that with the average education levels, it all tallies uncomfortably well. The average reading age of prisoners is less than 14 years, and the average mathematical ability is less than a 10 year old. We run education courses that are aimed to achive a minmum level of 13 years for literacy and 9 years old for numeracy, and we are nver short of students. In fact, its also fair to say that so much of our education resources in prison are devoted to these low levels that those who would want to improve their education to what we would call more usual levels are neglected, there just isn’t the money to do everything. Education is difficult to achive in UK jails, because we cannot get one prisoner in one place long enough to make a differance. Prisoners move between jails, accomodation units, differant employment within prison that to get 6 months conitnuous quality education time with an inmate is an achievment. It is not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that very many inmates simply have not grown up, that they are still with the minds of young teenagers in terms of emotional development, and you might think to yourself how much you tormented your siblings or schoolmates when you were that age.This does not deract from the prisoners ability to compile facts and snippets of information, the ability to imake interpretations, and draw conclusions, though often the process of reasoning is also faulty. The differance here is that the issues are often so much more serious, and the ability to cause harm. I think you have to appeal to each prisoners selfishness, so they understand ‘whats in it for them’ and every prisoner is differant, and a prisoner without direction, or hope and aim is a dangerous one. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/51 "2006-02-21T21:37:59Z")
As Casdave points out there isn’t a simple solution to how to handle criminals because it isn’t a simple problem. People commit crimes for many different reasons. In some cases an individual had many different reasons for committing a crime. And a problem that has a hundred different causes won’t have a single solution. I used to work at a prison that specialized in prisoners with drug and alcohol abuse problems. We were set up to help them overcome their addictions. But some of them weren’t just addicts - they were criminals as well. As one guy once explained to me, “Sure, I was drunk when I beat that guy with a baseball bat. But I didn’t beat him up because I was drunk; I beat him up because he owed me fifteen hundred dollars.” ---
**Author:** ![Gringo\_Miami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@Gringo\_Miami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gringo_Miami)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/52 "2006-02-21T23:14:45Z")
A few facts about the sexual abuse of inmates - either by other inmates or by staff - are available from the [US Dept of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics report on this subject.](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/svrca04.pdf) Warning: 39 Page PDF file. If you don’t have time to plow through all 39 pages, go to the grid on the bottom of Page 5 – that is the central table of data for the report. Please be careful – when interpreting these statistics, there is a warning on Page 4 - take it seriously. There are differences in definitions, etc. between jurisdictions. The one thing I get out of the report is that sexual abuse of inmates is a rare occurence in modern US correctional facilities. While no sexual abuse should be condoned, I believe strongly that we are currently running civilized facilities in this country by and large. The OP seems to feel otherwise, and he is entitled to his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Gringo\_Miami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@Gringo\_Miami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gringo_Miami)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/53 "2006-02-21T23:35:12Z")
Here is a document worth reading, if you are serious about the subject. There is a lot of research out there, but this is one of the better documented studies. I am probably going to post otherfactual references over the next several days, but a visit to the Bureau of Justice Statistics or the National Institute of Corrections websites is open to the public, and worth your time if you are interested. [The psychological effects of 60 days in administrative segregation](http://www.nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/016309&ID=016309&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r85/r85_e.pdf) tome on the subject… remember Administrative Segregation is the actual professional term for “solitary.” WARNING: 100 page pdf. If you don’t have the time for all 100 pages, please read the Executive summary on Page ii – Page 4 of the PDF. They find some differences between segregated and non segregated, but generally nothing significant, better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Gringo\_Miami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@Gringo\_Miami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gringo_Miami)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/54 "2006-02-21T23:47:07Z")
Here is one the OP may find VERY interesting: [Lockdown New York: Disciplinary Confinement in NYS Prisons](http://www.nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/019277&ID=019277&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.correctionalassociation.org/PVP/publications/lockdown-new-york_report.pdf) Warning: 60 page pdf Let me quote from the Executive Summary: (pdf page 3 – actual page 2) > [@The Correctional Association of NY](#): > > Some of the troubling realities of disciplinary lockdown are: > > Between 1998 and 2001, over half the system’s 48 suicides occurred in 23 hour lockdown, although the inmates in these units comprise less than 10% of the general population. While it is risky to quote a small paragraph from a large, complex report, I am tyring to convey to the Board readers that this is a VERY complex subject. The OP might have us believe that this type of lockdown is preferred by the inmates, is cheaper, etc. I think a good review of the literature points out a very different view. Let’s try and fight some ignorance here - even if it is Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/55 "2006-02-22T03:19:39Z")
Just so you know, Gringo, the Correction Association of New York is not regarded as an unbiased source of information on corrections issues. ---
**Author:** ![Gringo\_Miami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@Gringo\_Miami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gringo_Miami)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/56 "2006-02-22T03:30:25Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Just so you know, Gringo, the Correction Association of New York is not regarded as an unbiased source of information on corrections issues. I am VERY aware of that Nemo… it is one of the reasons I used their material… just to show that even a VERY prisoner oriented advocacy group can come out against the type of incarceration that the OP seems to advocate. You have probably figured out that I have had many years in this business…(retired now) and I came head to head with CANY and the NYC Legal Aid Society many times… but always on a professional basis. One thing I can not stand is an oversimplification of a very complex issue. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/57 "2006-02-22T04:58:45Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > … > > The level of learning difficulties in UK prisons is astonishing, at over 60%, but when you couple that with the average education levels, it all tallies uncomfortably well. > > The average reading age of prisoners is less than 14 years, and the average mathematical ability is less than a 10 year old. > > We run education courses that are aimed to achive a minmum level of 13 years for literacy and 9 years old for numeracy, and we are nver short of students. > In fact, its also fair to say that so much of our education resources in prison are devoted to these low levels that those who would want to improve their education to what we would call more usual levels are neglected, there just isn’t the money to do everything. > > Education is difficult to achive in UK jails, because we cannot get one prisoner in one place long enough to make a differance. > Prisoners move between jails, accomodation units, differant employment within prison that to get 6 months conitnuous quality education time with an inmate is an achievment. > > … > > I think you have to appeal to each prisoners selfishness, so they understand ‘whats in it for them’ and every prisoner is differant, and a prisoner without direction, or hope and aim is a dangerous one. Sigh … Dear Casdave, thank you so much for doing your incredibly difficult job. That’s all. > [@gringo\_miami](#): > > I believe strongly that we are currently running civilized facilities in this country by and large. The OP seems to feel otherwise, and he is entitled to his opinion. I, the OP myself, agree with the Gringo that the US and UK systems are generally very civilized. My title for this post was misleading, as it should have been perhaps “More Civilized Prisons”. I’d still vote for one man, one cell, one shower, don’t make me go out much. Build in the education. Put in a computer (no internet) with a touch typing game, and educational programs, and a video player with a touchscreen library of interesting and educational videos … I was also interested by your comment on the 60 day study of segregation … > [@gringo\_miami](#): > > They find some differences between segregated and non segregated, but generally nothing significant, better or worse. I suspect that with a video player and a computer in the room, the differences would be even less. Yeah, I know, the cost, boss, the cost … but I’m talking hypothetical here … w. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/58 "2006-02-22T05:55:37Z")
> [@Gringo\_Miami](#): > > Here is one the OP may find VERY interesting: [Lockdown New York: Disciplinary Confinement in NYS Prisons](http://www.nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/019277&ID=019277&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.correctionalassociation.org/PVP/publications/lockdown-new-york_report.pdf) Warning: 60 page pdf > > Let me quote from the Executive Summary: (pdf page 3 – actual page 2) > > Quote: > Originally Posted by The Correctional Association of NY > > \*\*Some of the troubling realities of disciplinary lockdown are: > > Between 1998 and 2001, over half the system’s 48 suicides occurred in 23 hour lockdown, although the inmates in these units comprise less than 10% of the general population. > \*\* > While it is risky to quote a small paragraph from a large, complex report, I am tyring to convey to the Board readers that this is a VERY complex subject. The OP might have us believe that this type of lockdown is preferred by the inmates, is cheaper, etc. I think a good review of the literature points out a very different view. Let’s try and fight some ignorance here - even if it is Great Debates. Thank you for this reference, Gringo, and your comment on it, Nemo. You are correct, it is far from a simple subject. A fascinating report. I was particularly interested by the description of their visit to the Colorado State Penitentiary, and of the principles applied there. I had never imagined, for example, such a prison would operate under a “no touch” rule, that neither the neither inmates nor staff can put their hands on each other during routine out-of-cell movement. Surprising. Their other policies seemed extremely enlightened as well. Before reading the report, I had expected both more violent and more suicidal behaviour from people in disciplinary confinement, as those are among the reasons that people are in placed in disciplinary confinement. What I had not expected was the incredibly high proportion of NY confinement prisoners who should be in a mental institution and not a cell … all in all, a very interesting and disturbing report on disciplinary confinement in NY and Colorado. Disciplinary confinement, however, at least to me, was never the subject I was discussing. I was discussing across the board segregation – one man, one cell, one shower, one video, one computer … and just your average prison population, not 83% people who are the mentally ill, deluded, suicidally demented wretched of the earth … My thanks to everyone, I’ve gotten much more than I expected, all of it valuable, all of it fascinating, it’s rolling … w. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/59 "2006-02-22T05:59:36Z")
> [@Gringo\_Miami](#): > > Here is one the OP may find VERY interesting: [Lockdown New York: Disciplinary Confinement in NYS Prisons](http://www.nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/019277&ID=019277&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.correctionalassociation.org/PVP/publications/lockdown-new-york_report.pdf) Warning: 60 page pdf > > Let me quote from the Executive Summary: (pdf page 3 – actual page 2) > > Quote: > Originally Posted by The Correctional Association of NY > > \*\*Some of the troubling realities of disciplinary lockdown are: > > Between 1998 and 2001, over half the system’s 48 suicides occurred in 23 hour lockdown, although the inmates in these units comprise less than 10% of the general population. > \*\* > While it is risky to quote a small paragraph from a large, complex report, I am tyring to convey to the Board readers that this is a VERY complex subject. The OP might have us believe that this type of lockdown is preferred by the inmates, is cheaper, etc. I think a good review of the literature points out a very different view. Let’s try and fight some ignorance here - even if it is Great Debates. Thank you for this reference, Gringo, and your comment on it, Nemo. You are correct, it is far from a simple subject. A fascinating report. I was particularly interested by the description of their visit to the Colorado State Penitentiary, and of the principles applied there. I had never imagined, for example, such a prison would operate under a “no touch” rule, that neither the neither inmates nor staff can put their hands on each other during routine out-of-cell movement. Surprising. Their other policies seemed extremely enlightened as well. Before reading the report, I had expected both more violent and more suicidal behaviour from people in disciplinary confinement, as those are among the reasons that people are in placed in disciplinary confinement. What I had not expected was the incredibly high proportion of NY confinement prisoners who should be in a mental institution and not a cell … all in all, a very interesting and disturbing report on disciplinary confinement. Disciplinary confinement, however, at least to me, was never the subject I was discussing. I was discussing across the board segregation – one man, one cell, one shower, one video, one computer … and just your average prison population, not 83% people who are the mentally ill, deluded, suicidally demented wretched of the earth … My thanks to everyone, I’ve gotten much more than I expected, all of it valuable, all of it fascinating, it’s rolling … w. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936/60 "2006-02-22T11:02:12Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > … > The level of learning difficulties in UK prisons is astonishing, at over 60%, but when you couple that with the average education levels, it all tallies uncomfortably well. > > The average reading age of prisoners is less than 14 years, and the average mathematical ability is less than a 10 year old. > > We run education courses that are aimed to achive a minmum level of 13 years for literacy and 9 years old for numeracy, and we are never short of students. > > In fact, its also fair to say that so much of our education resources in prison are devoted to these low levels that those who would want to improve their education to what we would call more usual levels are neglected, there just isn’t the money to do everything. > > Education is difficult to achive in UK jails, because we cannot get one prisoner in one place long enough to make a differance. > > Prisoners move between jails, accomodation units, differant employment within prison that to get 6 months conitnuous quality education time with an inmate is an achievment. > > , Sigh … the size of the task. Casdave, and the rest of you labouring in the field, my thanks for doing a thankless job with compassion. That’s all. > [@Gringo\_Miami](#): > > Here is one the OP may find VERY interesting: [Lockdown New York: Disciplinary Confinement in NYS Prisons](http://www.nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/019277&ID=019277&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.correctionalassociation.org/PVP/publications/lockdown-new-york_report.pdf) Warning: 60 page pdf > > Let me quote from the Executive Summary: (pdf page 3 – actual page 2) > > Quote: > Originally Posted by The Correctional Association of NY > > \*\*Some of the troubling realities of disciplinary lockdown are: > > Between 1998 and 2001, over half the system’s 48 suicides occurred in 23 hour lockdown, although the inmates in these units comprise less than 10% of the general population. > \*\* > While it is risky to quote a small paragraph from a large, complex report, I am tyring to convey to the Board readers that this is a VERY complex subject. The OP might have us believe that this type of lockdown is preferred by the inmates, is cheaper, etc. I think a good review of the literature points out a very different view. Let’s try and fight some ignorance here - even if it is Great Debates. Thank you for this reference, Gringo, and your comment on it, Nemo. You are correct, it is far from a simple subject. A fascinating report. I was particularly interested by the description of their visit to the Colorado State Penitentiary, and of the principles applied there. I had never imagined, for example, that such a prison would operate under a “no touch” rule, where neither the neither inmates nor staff can put their hands on each other during routine out-of-cell movement. Surprising. Their other policies seemed extremely enlightened as well. Before reading the report, I had expected both more violent and more suicidal behaviour from people in disciplinary confinement, as those are among the reasons that people are in placed in disciplinary confinement. What I had not expected was the incredibly high proportion of NY confinement prisoners who should be in a mental institution and not a cell … all in all, a very interesting and disturbing report on disciplinary confinement in NY and Colorado. Disciplinary confinement, however, at least to me, was never the subject I was discussing. I was discussing across the board segregation – one man, one cell, one shower, one video with educational cds, one computer with educational software … build in the education. Yeah, I know, the cost, but … I’m talking hypothetical. And just your average prison population, not like in NY some places, 83% comprised of people who are the seriously mentally ill, deluded, suicidally demented wretched of the earth, who belong in a mental hospital … My thanks to everyone, I’ve gained much more than I expected, all of it valuable, all of it fascinating, it’s rolling … w. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilized-prisons-anyone/344936.md?page=4)