Civilized Prisons, Anyone

In th eUK we simoly do not have dorms, and it takes some serious problems to have more than two inmates to a cell.

Intention
Its not that you made a comment, its that it is so uninformed and is one of the many mad schemes that I hear folk come up with without much regard for reality.

Most comment by the public tends to be reactionary, stereotypical, and yet they always seem to think that they have “the answer” if only the do-gooders would let them have their way.

If your comment had been informed, you would first have looked at how prisons are currently run, maybe taken a look at how they have been run, and in general gathered some information.

Penocological issues are huge in scope because they are affected by almost everything we do in society, prisons have to deal with the fall out and prisons themselves are a reflection of the society that uses them.

The problem is most people in prison get out sooner or later. Someone who has been driven insane and feels intense rage against society because of it will be a much worse parolee than someone who has had quality rehabiliation.

Plus it is more expensive.

In the US solitary confinement is reserved for the most dangerous inmates. We don’t put all the women who pass bad checks and all the men who committed wire fraud in solitary. We just try to make the prisons non violent by segregating the more violent inmates.

"You are definitely safer from inmate to inmate sexual assault in your own cell. No dispute. However, given other comments hoping to increase the deterrence value of incarceration - do you really want the inmate more comfortable??? "

The “definitely safer” comment was mine. It is hard to convey heavy sarcasm in text - I am much better at it in person - usually after a few beers. Please consider that particular section of my post withdrawn. It wasn’t meant as it sounded.

As I said in post, solitary confinement is more expensive precisely because of the labor costs of correctional officers. Please review all that I said. And remember, there is no such thing as food in cells - except in the most unusual and extreme circumstances. What with suicide watches, cell searches, meal times, mandatory exercises, mandated visits, etc, etc… dormatory housing is MUCH more cost effective.

Casdave has been too modest to mention it, but he works in the U.K. prison service. As such it’s worth listening to him.

What the OP has described is known as the Pennsylvania System (it originated at the Walnut Street Jail in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1790). Prisoners were isolated from each other, given basic comforts, and some books on good living. The idea was that these prisoners would have an opportunity to avoid the bad influences that had led them to crime, would have a lot of time to think about their lives and where they had gone wrong, and would read the books and learn how to live a better life.

What the authorities found was that human beings are a social animal and people deprived of all social contact start acting crazy. Of course this being the 18th Century, the science of psychology was pretty much non-existent. But it soon became clear that prisoners were coming out of the prison in worse shape than they had entered it. Isolation is not a good form of therapy.

So they invented the Auburn System (named for Auburn Prison in Auburn, New York which opened in 1821). The new idea was that the prioners would all be organized into groups. Their lives would be heavily regulated and they would work all day. The theory was that they would be too tired to cause many problems and that they would eventually pick up some self-discipline by habit from having discipline imposed upon them. It was found that generally prisoners just got used to doing what they were told rather than learning any moral values but at least they weren’t going crazy anymore.

The next big thing was the Elmira System (named for Elmira Reformatory, a former Civil War POW camp in Elmira, NY, which was opened as a prison in 1870). This system assumed that prioners had been criminals because of some problem in their past and attempted to solve these problems. This was the first major attempt to classify inmates rather than lump them all into a universal program. Incoming prisoners were interviewed and assigned to programs which were intended to address their particular needs. Some prisoners received mental health treatment, some were given treatment for drinking or drug problems, and some were given general educations or vocational training. This system, with numerous modifications, is the one still generally in use.

What the OP has done here is basically described the type of prison that he would prefer to be confined to if he were a prisoner.

Intentional or not, that is ultimately what this is. Not a series of practical or logical guidelines for running a real prison.

Now when we say someone has gone insane, crazy, or mad from isolation what do we mean? Is it a specific mental disorder that occurs, is it permanent?

He did say he thought all confinement should be that way. So I don’t think he was just talking about his personal preference.

It occurs to me that the guys in prison might not be the authority on not getting caught. :wink:

I realize this. What I mean is that he’s claiming that all prisons should be the type of place where he would want to be imprisoned.

I saw a thing about this on tv a while back. They discussed the difference between Super Bad Prison in the the South somewhere and then another one up in North Dakota or something similar. The difference was iron fist vs. human respect, and they seemed to have a much lower recidivism rate at the prison where they treated them like human beings and got to the business of rehabilitation as opposed to punishment. Anyone else see that? I think it might have been American Justice.

Prisons in the UK, and most other Westernised nations, place a great deal of empasis on training life skills, and employment skills, the balance between them has tended to swing between the two.

Life skills are programmes such as improving cognitive thinking, harm reduction from substances including alchohol and tobacco, offending behaviour and what leads individuals into the circumstances where they are more likel to commit crime, and mental health issues, there are many more.

Skills and employment training are easier to imagine, workshops where skills in vehicle repair, catering, computer literacy, construction trades are pretty much stock in trade.

Unfortunately, trade training will not equip the overwhelimg majority, just as it would not work for the majority of the non-criminal population.

The reason for this was researched by the Training and Skills council around 20 years ago, but those findings are still relevant, even though much of the agency that produced the report no longer exists.

Trade training depends hugely on the selection of suitable candidates and the fact is, the general population pretty much selects itself, those wanting to beome, for instance bricklayers, will seek the training themselves and gain employment in that field.

Of those who are changing trades due to redundancy, or have simply not been able to find employment previously, less than 5% of them end up being suitable, for many reasons including education and the real big reason - motivation.

Don’t underestimate motivation, most take a job or trade for personal reasons, it may be they are from a family background of engineers, or perhaps they feel its ‘right for them’, but whatever it is, for most people there is a reason that they have taken up their particular vocation, and sheer economic necessity, or desparation emplyment seems largely confined to the McJobs of this world.

When we are addressing prisoners needs, the first thing you have to consider is that these folk are largely lazy, greedy and have lots of desires.

Add to this the striking fact that educationally they are usually in the very lowest levels of academic achievement, so that the few who actually might be suitable for training make up a tiny percentage of that 5% of the population that are suitable for trade training.

Its also true that those who might be suitable, are also the ones who actually make money out of crime and so they have little incentive to take a regular job.

By the time we get them in adult prisons its already too late, they will have a record of offending going back 8 to 10 years, and its those years that are the crucial ones, because that is when their patterns of thought developed, its when their brains made all those neural connections that allow them to learn.

To be honest the big problem is education during the formative years, its here where money should be spent, not in prisons, its in schools that you reduce crime.

Having classes of 30 students may well be more economic than 15 students, however in the UK it worth noting that the fee paying schools which are the education providers of our wealthy elites tend to achieve better academic grades(there are exceptions, some state schools are very good too), and those expensive schools have much much lower student teacher ratios, in certain specialisms it can be around 7 to 1 .

Our state schools have perhaps 30 to 35 in a class, our truant chasing system is ineffective and it is only very recently that parents have been held accountable for the poor attendance of their offspring through the use of the judiciary.

Most offenders give up on crime in their mid to late 30’s, probations workers claim the magic age is 26.
Quite frankly, it would be better to hold repeat offenders until they are 40 or maybe 50, when their ability for violence is reduced, and they are not in a position to influence the upbringing of their children,

Casdave, thanks for the post. While you obviously know something about prisons in the UK (although not how to spell “penological”), your knowledge of US prisons seems lacking.

I have looked at how they have been run in the past, and seen how they are run now. It’s not a pretty picture. Perhaps my ideas for reform are wrong, but to simply say everything is OK, I’m the expert, trust me, well, that doesn’t touch the horrendous problems the US is facing. Gang activities, prisoner-on-prisoner violence, corruption among the guards, muggings and intimidation in the dorms (which the US simply does have), if you think everything is OK … get some glasses.

w.

If there are showers in the cells, how many guards does it take to make sure prisoners are not assaulted in the shower, or on the way there and back?

Well … none.

If food is brought to the cells, how many guards does it take to make sure prisoners are not assaulted in the mess hall, or on the way there and back?

Well … none.

I fail to see how having prisoners in dorms will reduce the number of guards as you say, Gringo Miami. Perhaps you could expand on that, I don’t see it yet … but I’ve missed the obvious in the past …

w.

Heard an interesting bit on NPR. They were doing a story about all the recent prison breaks in the US – apparently, there’s been quite a spate of them. They interviewed an expert who said a lot of the escapes have been from badly managed county jails. He said, “A lot of the problem is that in many states, the jails are administered by the sherriff’s department. And if you look into it, you’ll find that the result has been a lot of first-rate sherriff’s departments and a lot of third rate jails.” His solution is to have the jails administered by its own department, thus no internal conflict over where money should go.

It’s a simple administrative change that makes a lot of sense, if you ask me.

What your are proposing would involve re-constructing virtually every correctional facility in the country. That cost would wipe out any savings that you could theoretically realize from your “lock-in” methodology.

I have been stating that dorms are an economy of scale. Easier to maintain and easier to staff. I know that the “easier to staff” part is counterinuitive. Having planned correctional facilities for years, and having done overtime projections and staffing scenarios, I know that when you compare a real high security environment with your “lock-in” approach, the high security approach is more expensive. During the worst of the overcrowding in the 80s and 90s, NYC DOC and many other correctional systems were housing inmates in quonset huts. This was both cost effective, safe and humane. Other systems used similar temporary construction techniques, almost all of which relied on a variation of the dormitory system - typically 50 inmates to a housing area, two officers a shift, and no private facilities at all. Violence was very low except in the adolescent facility (too much acting out) and costs were controllable.

If you insist on creating a new type of facility, including a showers in the cell, meals in cell, etc, then you have to calculate the construction costs.

You and other inmates may prefer a private cell, and it may have certain advantages, but it ain’t cheaper.

If you don’t want to listen to Casdave, are you prepared to listen to me? I’ve been working in US prisons for 24 years now.

Things obviously aren’t perfect inside prisons. You’re not going to concentrate the worst elements of society into a single environment and not have problems. But the problems are manageable and are being managed. And I know this because I manage a prison.

There’s a saying some folks in corrections have: “A bored inmate is a dangerous inmate.”

My husband has worked at both a Super Max (in which the prisoners are kept much like the OP suggests) and medium security institutions. There were actually more inmate-on-guard injuries in the Super Max in the year that he worked there than the *three years *that he’s been back at medium security.

How can that be, you ask, when the inmates are locked in the cells, away from others? The answer is that there are times in which the inmate has to come out of the cell (they are required to have one hour per day out of the cell). If he has to see a doctor or dentist, if he needs a shower or rec time, he has to come out. Even cuffed and shackled, an inmate can injure others.

Secondly, inmates occasionally stabbed guards with hand-made impliments when the guard passed food through the cuffport. They sometimes created projectile weapons (one of which, believe it or not, was actually almost as powerful as a .22). They fought viciously when the guards had to go in to get them.

Inmates would flood their cells by stuffing toilet paper in the commode then refuse to be cuffed, meaning the guards had to go in to get them. The cells were specially designed to be tamper-proof, but a guy who has twenty-three hours a day to work at it can tamper with ANYTHING. They would bust off sprinkler heads and flood the “range” (cellblock) forcing the guards to move all of the inmates. (This is one of the reasons why a shower in each cell would be a* nightmare.*)

You usually won’t ever see a corrections professional bitching in tones of outrage about all the recreational items inmates get-- they know keeping the inmates active keeps them safer. An inmate worn out from playing basketball isn’t likely to cause any trouble. Personal interaction keeps them active, making friends, angling for status and even petty squabbling. They work jobs inside the prisons, learning valuable vocational skills. A lot of them end up being pretty content with their lives on the inside and have no real incentive to misbehave.

Medium security prisons are not as violent as the movies would have you believe. A fight resulting in serious injury is rare enough to warrant a middle-of-the-night phone-call to the warden, as is sexual assault.* The inmates do a good deal of self-policing. The long-timers who have settled into a relatively comfortable lifestyle don’t want the “young punks” coming in and causing a fuss which might get privledges revoked, or the prison searched for contraband. Snitching is also a big business.

Inmates locked in cells for twenty-three hours a day have nothing to do but focus on their anger and resentment. They don’t always turn to reading or television-- especially if the prison cable is censored (as many are) or consists solely of educational programming. A lot of times, they turn to violence against themselves or others as a way of relieving the tedium.

*Of course, rape in prison does happen, but actual *violent, forcible *rape is pretty rare. It’s mostly accomplished through intimidation or promises of protection. Accusations of rape are intensively investigated and prosecuted, with the accuser given complete protection and, if need be, moved to another insitution.

NOTE: I’m going to be out of town for a couple of days, so if anyone argues with me or wants to know more, I’m not ignoring you. I will respond when I return.

Lissa and Little Nemo and Casdave, thank you for your postings. Your points are well taken.

However, I would suggest that the reason that there were more inmate-on-guard injuries at the Supermax is the same reason the inmates are in the Supermax in the first place … because they are so violent. I don’t think it has to do with whether they are 1 or 2 to a cell.

My questions to Casdave, and to you both, and to everyone, remain:

What can we do to reduce inmate on inmate violence? (saying there’s little forcible rape, it’s just normal anal sex accomplished by intimidation or extortion, Lissa … was that a joke? I hope so … unless you really think a guy should get off of a rape charge by saying “I never got violent with the woman, I just held a knife to her throat and told her I’d kill her if she resisted” …)

What can we do to reduce prisons being a school for crime?

My plan may be junk … OK, fair enough, I’ve been wrong many times, but what’s the better plan? Call me crazy, but I think it’s cruel and unusual punishment to make a man share a cell with someone who is a homicidal maniac …

w.