# Claim - There was never racial segregation in New York - Is this a fact? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 8, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807 "2012-01-08T08:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/1 "2012-01-08T08:15:25Z")
[A respondent to this article](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083449/Black-white-pictures-1960s-subway-scenes-everyday-life-taken-hidden-camera.html) about some historic B&W photos of the NY subway system claims that the article commenting that > [@](#): > > No colour bar: While segregation still existed in much of the country in New York the barriers were coming down is nonsensical as there were never any bars to begin with. Is this true? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/2 "2012-01-08T15:22:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [A respondent to this article](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083449/Black-white-pictures-1960s-subway-scenes-everyday-life-taken-hidden-camera.html) about some historic B&W photos of the NY subway system claims that the article commenting that > > is nonsensical as there were never any bars to begin with. > > Is this true? Do you mean there were no racial barriers on the subway? Or in general? I can’t speak for the former, but there is no question that NY was once [a](http://libwiki.mcmaster.ca/geog3ur3/index.php/NewYork/Segregation) [very](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/22/nyregion/22stuyvesant.html) [segregated](http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12597&news_iv_ctrl=1261) [place](http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Desegregating+the+Jim+Crow+North%3a+racial+discrimination+in+the...-a0203022046). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/3 "2012-01-08T15:58:33Z")
I think it depends on what is meant by “segregation”. If the original author and the commenter are referring to Jim Crow laws mandating segregation in public places- separate restrooms, separate areas on public transportation , etc - there wasn’t much ( if any) of that in the North. Since the photo is of a white man sitting next to an African-American on the subway , I think that is what the author and commenter meant. _De facto_ segregation ( like that referred to in **monstro’s** links) as a result of deed restrictions, redlining and restrictive membership policies which were not legally required is another story. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/4 "2012-01-08T16:36:07Z")
In the North, segregation was de facto – there were no “whites only” subway cars, for instance. Blacks and whites were separated in more subtle ways, but could eat at the same lunch counters. In addition, there was no concerted effort to keep Blacks from voting. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/5 "2012-01-08T16:49:33Z")
I also interpreted that to mean “mandatory” or “government-enforced” segregation. And I don’t believe it’s accurate to say there was “never” government enforced segregation in NYC transportation options. However, the [lawsuit that made transit segregation illegal took place in 1855](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Jennings_Graham) (in an interesting historical footnote, future president Chester A. Arthur represented the plaintiff.) By 1960, there was basically no one alive who could personally remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/6 "2012-01-08T17:47:06Z")
I don’t know about transit systems, but racial segregation existed throughout the entire country to varying degrees prior to 1900. After that _de jure_ segregation was mostly confined to the South, with some places in the North being outliers and holding on to it for a longer period of time. (I believe Indiana may have held onto it the longest, having segregated schools up until 1949.) New York was no different, I think Theodore Roosevelt actually ended school segregation in New York when governor, although my understanding is it was not being practiced at the time and was a legal remnant. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/7 "2012-01-09T06:13:21Z")
**monstro** , thanks for the links to fight my own ignorance. My computer has slowed to a snail’s pace or I would have followed more than a couple of them. One of them about persisting segregation in NYC is chilling. I guess it’s hard to turn lose of biases after a state has a two hundred year history of slavery. People know that it’s still in Virginia but don’t think about Massachusetts or New York so much. [http://www.slaveryinnewyork.org/about\_exhibit.htm](http://www.slaveryinnewyork.org/about_exhibit.htm) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/8 "2012-01-09T10:13:49Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t know about transit systems, but racial segregation existed throughout the entire country to varying degrees prior to 1900. After that _de jure_ segregation was mostly confined to the South, with some places in the North being outliers and holding on to it for a longer period of time. (I believe Indiana may have held onto it the longest, having segregated schools up until 1949.) New York was no different, I think Theodore Roosevelt actually ended school segregation in New York when governor, although my understanding is it was not being practiced at the time and was a legal remnant. Many states [outside the South](http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/geography/outside_south.htm) began adopting laws against racial segregation in public accomodations well before 1900. [New York State](http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/scripts/jimcrow/lawsoutside.cgi?state=New%20York)’s first law against segregation in public accomodations (“inns, public transportation, theaters, or other places of amusement, schools and cemeteries”) was in 1873. ---
**Author:** ![JohnUK66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f08c70/32.png) [@JohnUK66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnUK66)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/9 "2017-09-03T23:30:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do you mean there were no racial barriers on the subway? Or in general? > > I can’t speak for the former, but there is no question that NY was once [a](http://libwiki.mcmaster.ca/geog3ur3/index.php/NewYork/Segregation) [very](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/22/nyregion/22stuyvesant.html) [segregated](http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12597&news_iv_ctrl=1261) [place](http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Desegregating+the+Jim+Crow+North%3a+racial+discrimination+in+the...-a0203022046). I can confirm…There were no racist barriers on the New York subway everyone had to pay to pass thru them! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/10 "2017-09-04T00:08:34Z")
As pointed out public services were desegregated in NY at various points before the 20th century and there was no Jim Crow “separate but (un)equal” \*legal \*mandate, but de facto segregation in other contexts through redlining and other targeted discriminatory practices in hiring/housing/service stayed in place quite late. This applied not just in NY but in many cities in the North/Midwest/West. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/11 "2017-09-05T00:49:59Z")
In 1955, there was at least one suburb (Yeadon) of Philadelphia where the deeds required selling only to white Christians. And in 1955 such restrictive covenants would be enforced by courts. My parents were looking to move to the 'burbs and this was closed to them. I regret to say that I had an uncle in Brooklyn who acted as a real estate agent (he was too stupid to ever get a license, even with a bribe) but whose real business was “breaking blocks”. He would call everyone on a blocks and tell them, “The N-----s are coming; you better sell fast.” ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/12 "2017-09-05T01:20:58Z")
This is CA, but when we bought our previous house in Glendale, the seller’s real estate agent (a Frenchwoman by birth, oddly) told us without batting an eyelash, “This is a very safe neighborhood. They didn’t even let blacks in until the 70s.” Turns out there’s a decent amount of burglary in that neighborhood, and it’s not perpetrated by the (still very few) African American residents. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/13 "2017-09-05T14:48:08Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > In 1955, there was at least one suburb (Yeadon) of Philadelphia where the deeds required selling only to white Christians. And in 1955 such restrictive covenants would be enforced by courts. My parents were looking to move to the 'burbs and this was closed to them. > > I regret to say that I had an uncle in Brooklyn who acted as a real estate agent (he was too stupid to ever get a license, even with a bribe) but whose real business was “breaking blocks”. He would call everyone on a blocks and tell them, “The N-----s are coming; you better sell fast.” These [covenants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)#Examples_in_U.S.) could be found throughout the Country. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/14 "2017-09-05T15:18:35Z")
In Robert Caros bio of Robert Moses, he notes that RM built hundreds of parks across NYC but almost none in black neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/15 "2017-09-06T11:59:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > New York was no different, I think Theodore Roosevelt actually ended school segregation in New York when governor, although my understanding is it was not being practiced at the time and was a legal remnant. New York State, or New York City? The state is pretty much New England, white Yankees, but the City had been multicultural since its beginning under the Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claim-there-was-never-racial-segregation-in-new-york-is-this-a-fact/608807/16 "2017-09-06T14:02:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > These [covenants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)#Examples_in_U.S.) could be found throughout the Country. It was an issue in William Rehnquist’s 1986 nomination to become Chief Justice of the United States, as to property he owned in Arizona in the 1950s: [William Rehnquist - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rehnquist#Chief_Justice)