# Claiming minority status on applications. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862 "2003-09-06T01:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/21 "2003-09-08T14:56:52Z")
I’m not saying that the experience of a minority has to be that of someone who is disadvantaged. I am saying it has to be an experience of someone who is different and is often reminded of their difference, and can thus emphasize with someone who is different in the same way they are, because they know how it is. ---
**Author:** ![stick\_monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@stick\_monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stick_monkey)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/22 "2003-09-08T14:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > But without background, being a minority is solely skin deep. I’m not a minority just because I look different. I’m a minority because my upbringing and my cultural identity deviate from the “norm”. If that’s the case, someones going to have to take the time to define ‘norm’ or ‘normal’. I think that by that criteria, nearly everyone could consider themselves a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/23 "2003-09-08T15:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*I find that last statement pretty troubling. It insinuated that people who identify themselves as a member of a specific group no longer have to rely on their credentials. > > As I understand most scholarship programs, your “own merits” will determine whether or not you are awarded the scholarship. Those that are limited to a certain race, gender, geographic area, religion, or what have you are matters of _eligibility_ The exception would be if there were absolutely no other people competing for the position/money/award, in which case it’s just economically foolish to refuse to apply. It’s not as if you are denying anyone what is being offered. > > As for Airman Door’s original question–I think you could make an argument that it’s valid and even valuable for Airman Doors to be recognized as “Latino” and Eva Luna’s friend to be “Hispanic.” Isn’t it important for people to realize that being “minority” can mean a lot of things, not just the stereotyped skin color and background? \*\* Well, I should explain further. Do I feel that my Jewish background and upbringing have disadvantaged me academically or professionally in any way? No, in fact quite the opposite. Have I felt myself to be the victim of antisemitism at any point in my past? Thankfully, no, unless you want to count the twerp in middle school who told me I was a Jewish bitch because a Jewish doctor killed his brother. I grew up in a very multicultural town where we generally got Jewish holidays off of school, and where nobody thought twice about having Jewish classmates. Personally, I feel merit scholarships based on specific group membership rather than strictly academic qualifications or financial need should be awarded to people who have had to overcome some obstacle to achievement. I don’t think I have been the victim of discrimination, so I’d rather see the money go to someone who either needs it or deserves it more than I do. I’m certainly open to the idea that there are worse antisemitism problems in other strata of society, or in other regions of the country. And if we start getting into the whole levels of my mixed-up Jewish identity (I’m an agnostic), that would be a whole other thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/24 "2003-09-08T16:07:17Z")
Government programs tend to be of the “one size fits all” category and the Hispanic minority issue is a perfect example. Children of recent immigrants who barely speak English are treated the same as my buddy, Chris Martinez\*, who is about 1/16 Mexican and grew up in an afluent suburb and can’t speak a word of Spanish. But he has an Hispanic last name and easily qualifies for any minority targetted benefits. The statistics I’ve seen is that somewhere between 30% and 50% of 3rd generation Hispanics marry non-Hispanics. Looks like **Airman Doors** is a perfect example of that. \*Not his real name, but you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/25 "2003-09-08T16:57:50Z")
I think there are different kinds of affirmative action, and there is more to it than right or wrong, if we can describe AA as any program that uses race, sex, or ethnicity when evaluating addmission or hiring. I am ‘Hispanic’ because my family came to the United States from Mexico, and I live about 10 miles from the border. I am mostly Spanish, and have an Irish grandfather (who lived in Mexico). My surname is not Spanish but ‘Anglo’ sounding. I am pretty sure I have Native Indian blood somewhere, but I couldn’t provide any proof so I don’t claim it. I speak more or less fluent Spanish, and have no Spanish accent at all. When I travel away from home, I am asked if I am ethnically Italian, French, Jewish, or Russian - everything except ‘Hispanic’. I grew up somewhat poor but I am comfortable enough now. Since I live in a mostly Hispanic area, and don’t look all that Hispanic when I go elsewhere, I have never faced any direct discrimination in my life. I don’t think I should qualify for most forms of affirmative action based on ‘race’, but I think there are exceptions. For instance, I have participated in youth programs as a student and I have gotten work as a teacher based on the fact that I am Hispanic. More specifically, because I speak Spanish, and I am familiar with the Mexican-American culture I was able to work with children that were having a hard time in mainstream classroom settings. I think that is a positive aspect of one form of affirmative action. Every year at local colleges and universities there is recruitment here on that basis. If someone feels that their presence in a university, corporation, or agency will have a positive influence on others, then affirmative action is ethical. However, if the sole purpose of it is to provide a façade of ‘diversity’ on a rather undiverse institution, then it is a farce. I am afriad the latter is more common than the former in too many settings. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/26 "2003-09-09T00:47:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*I’m not saying that the experience of a minority has to be that of someone who is disadvantaged. I am saying it has to be an experience of someone who is different and is often reminded of their difference, and can thus emphasize with someone who is different in the same way they are, because they know how it is. \*\* Ah, I really didn’t write my own message very carefully–I focused overmuch on disadvantage. I should have found a way to include other aspects of the minority experience–although we all seem to be having difficulty describing it. Yes, I think it’s important to have people who have had the experience of being, I dunno, “other,” or visibly different–they need to be able to talk to each other, and also to express that experience to people who haven’t been there. But I also think that it’s valuable to have people who could wear the label minority but who haven’t had the experience of difference. I used to work with a guy from Eritrea. He talked about how strange it was to grow up not being a “minority” but then moving here and having people consider him one. He accepted that numerically he now was one, but he had virtually none of the experiences African-americans had in our society. Of course, he was getting a bit of an education since moving here (women crossing the street to avoid passing him, crap like that) Anyway, talking to him about his perspectives made me even more thoughtful about the experience of being black in the U.S. I saw it from a completely different angle, which was a good addition to what other friends from a variety of backgrounds had told me about. His experience might be rare, but thinking about it gave me a new way to think about what being black can mean and should mean. I think cases like his, or Airman Doors, or the other examples cited here, help people realize that you cannot look at a person’s skin or listen to the ethnic sound of their name or note their membership in a certain class and know anything about their experience until you TALK to them. You don’t know how rich or poor they are, how much prejudice they’ve been spared or had to fight against, what their religion is, how they grew up, whether or not they are intelligent or kind or hard-working. I think that’s a good lesson to learn. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/27 "2003-09-09T01:21:52Z")
But my point, **Cranky** , is that **Airman** doesn’t have an experience as a minority. He has the experience of a white man who is trying to get one over on the system. How does that benefit anyone but himself? Your **Eritrea** guy came to the states as a 1)foreigner and 2)as a black person unfamiliar with race customs in the US. The opportunities for education–both for you and for him–are endless in a situation like this one. How does **Airman** educate anyone by simply writing “Hispanic” on a form, unless he has other intentions not stated in the OP? Also, I don’t get the idea that **Airman** would seriously identify himself as “Hispanic” outside of government forms. I’m thinking that the only time he would say as much would be so others could get a kick out of it. Just to clarify: I don’t think there is a single “minority” experience. People are always making fun of my “white ways”, so it’s not like I’m exactly Angela Davis. But I’m not white, and I don’t look out on this world as a white person. This isn’t anything special or intrinscially good, but it is _something_ that comes with being a minority in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/28 "2003-09-09T02:07:47Z")
The interesting thing, **monstro** , is you’re claiming that if I were to claim ethnicity, I’d be “getting one over on the system”. Since affirmative action, or quotas if you will, keeps people out at the expense of others, can it not be said that the beneficiaries of this are “getting one over on the system”? Also, are you saying that white males are the only ones that try to “get one over on the system”? I hope not. I’ve never been convinced that “affirmative action” is anything other than racism, only covered in guilt and good intentions. There’s no denying that there have been good things as a result of these policies, but I’ve never been able to get beyond the fact that some people are being denied something at the expense of others, and the deciding factor is ethnicity. That being said, how can you tell me that it would be “unethical” for me to claim an ethnicity, when there are many, many people who make that claim for their own aggrandizement? I thought that was the whole point of affirmative action, after all. [sub]Incidentally, I have no intention of following through on this, I’m just raising another point that I haven’t seen discussed yet.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/29 "2003-09-09T02:47:49Z")
Your problem is that some people are being denied something at the expense of others? That’s what economics is all about! Everybody can’t have everything! If there are only 1,000 mugs in the world (there’s a mug in front of me right now), some people are going to have to go without mugs. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/30 "2003-09-09T02:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The interesting thing, monstro, is you’re claiming that if I were to claim ethnicity, I’d be “getting one over on the system”. Of course you would be. You find the AA programs absurd and you’re talking about claiming Hispanic so that you could demonstrate its absurdity. Not only would you subvert the programs by doing this, but you would also catch the financial windfall. Sounds like getting over to me. > [@](#): > > I’ve never been convinced that “affirmative action” is anything other than racism, only covered in guilt and good intentions. Well, you aren’t alone. And don’t worry. I predict that AA will be history by the end of the decade. > [@](#): > > Since affirmative action, or quotas if you will, keeps people out at the expense of others, can it not be said that the beneficiaries of this are “getting one over on the system”? Usually people who benefit from AA do not actively go out seeking it. Most people do not have a choice of what race they claim…unless they want to lie about it (or I suppose they can leave it blank, but if you aren’t ashamed of it,why hide it?) Someone in your situation DOES have a choice. If your only intention in claiming an ethnicity is for the money that may come your way, I don’t know how else you would classify that behavior. To me, it’s “getting over” defined. I’m saying this assuming that you aren’t really interested in finding out more about your family’s background or how attached you could be to your community. If you truly are interested in these things, I apologize. > [@](#): > > There’s no denying that there have been good things as a result of these policies, but I’ve never been able to get beyond the fact that some people are being denied something at the expense of others, and the deciding factor is ethnicity. Why does everyone forget gender? I just got a flyer in my box adversitizing a job position. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply, it said. Why is only half of that combo villified when it comes to AA? > [@](#): > > That being said, how can you tell me that it would be “unethical” for me to claim an ethnicity, when there are many, many people who make that claim for their own aggrandizement? Cite on the “many, many”? Like I said before, most of the minorities I know aren’t claiming anything for their own aggrandizement. They are simply telling the truth…and they don’t have to post a thread of the SDMB to get justification for it. They did not have to discover their “background” while cleaning out the attic on a rainy afternoon. They were born and raised being culturally different and/or _looking_ different. How is it unethical for them to tell the truth in these regards? See, my father has never stopped identifying himself as black. Even when there was no such thing as Affirmative Action and overt racism wasn’t unusual, he identified himself as a black man. AA does not have anything to do with how my father identifies himself to others. You have to ask yourself if you would be the same way if you could not see any tangible benefits to being Hispanic. (It’s unethical despite what other people do anyway. If I get caught speeding on the interstate, I can’t get my way out of a ticket by pointing to the speeders who got away.) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/31 "2003-09-09T02:58:06Z")
That’s not my problem at all. What my thing is is that the only thing holding the whole affirmative action thing together is baling wire and prayer, and all it would take to bring the whole thing down is a few people in my situation taking advantage of the opportunity and the whole thing collapses like a house of cards. Unless you start demanding proof of pedigree, the door is open for anyone to claim anything with absolute impunity. And they would be able to get away with it, too, since there is absolutely no reasonable criteria for what qualifies a person for affirmative action. Am I the only one who thinks that the whole damn thing is absurd? I can’t be, but nobody else thus far has thought so. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/32 "2003-09-09T03:02:28Z")
That’s your best argument so far, **monstro**. That’s what I was hoping for when I threw this out there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/33 "2003-09-09T06:20:59Z")
It **would** be interesting to see what would happen if someone challenged Affirmative Action in court on the basis that race is not defined and that there is no objective criteria for determining the race of an individual. I expect that if a college had to set out criteria for claiming membership in a minority, the system would implode. With the possible exception of Native American, where there are legal definitions of tribal membership. But then, Native Americans make up something like 1% of the total popluation of the US and are therefore a tiny minority (no pun intended) of AA beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/34 "2003-09-09T14:02:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*But my point, **Cranky** , is that **Airman** doesn’t have an experience as a minority. He has the experience of a white man who is trying to get one over on the system. > > How does that benefit anyone but himself? > > … > > How does **Airman** educate anyone by simply writing “Hispanic” on a form, unless he has other intentions not stated in the OP? > \*\* To me, I think it benefits people who need to realize the surprising fact that you can be a “minority” (at least by our unsatisfying and imperfect definitions, and by AA programs) and never feel/experience life as/be anything but a white person. It’s both a cautionary tale (“See what happens when you use racial ancestry as a qualifier?”) AND a reminder that the “minority” experience in this country can be diverse, unexpected, and even contradictory. What’s a little unusual about Airman Doors’ situation is that he had no idea until recently that anyone in his family’s past was minority. Yeah, it’s different than someone who has consciously “passed” as white all their life, knowing that their identity was more complex than that . I think the concept of “minority” is slippery enough–the only way around this is to add a “minority AND YOU KNEW IT ALL ALONG!” clause and I think that’d just make the whole issue more squirrelly. FTR, no, I don’t think someone in Airman Doors’ situation (having newly discovered a family history) is who those programs are intended for. But I don’t think that someone has to have a certain level of “minority experience” to fulfill all the goals of such recruitment. I know my Eritrean buddy wasn’t a perfect analogy for this situation, but it had the same effect. It made me sit here and think a lot more deeply about what it means to be a “minority” and ponder the ironies of our definitions. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/35 "2003-09-09T15:59:44Z")
I have to agree with **Monstro**. Technically, I’m eligible for AA funds because I’m half Choctaw (from my father). I’ve never bothered to contact the tribe to be formally enrolled as a member because my father’s family wanted nothing to do with us after he died, and I am not obviously Indian in appearance. Being a half has never bothered me or caused me to be the recipient of bigotry, so it would be dishonest of me to claim minority status purely because of DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/36 "2003-09-09T17:39:26Z")
gobear: What is the Choctaw’s definition of tribal membership? ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/37 "2003-09-09T18:41:24Z")
The questions raised with claiming Hispanic on the form are who is entitled to claim it, and is that person someone that the program was designed to aid? I am entitled to claim Hispanic because my mother is Panamanian and my father is Brazilian. I was raised in a household that spoke Portuguese and Spanish as well as English. Was I treated as a Hispanic? I’m not really sure what that means. My skin tone is olive, but my features aren’t the same as those of the stereotypical Hispanic. I can pass for Southern European or Middle Eastern. My problem with it rises to the fact that there is no real definition to what a Hispanic for the purposes of these forms is. My cousin has a Greek last name and is blonde. He was told when applying to college that he should just put down Caucasian, sine they would take one look at him and not believe that he is Hispanic anyway. However, he is just as Hispanic as I am. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/38 "2003-09-09T18:57:02Z")
According to the Mississippi Band of the Choctaw Indians, it’s one-half, but the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma has no specific blood requirement. According to [niti.org](http://niti.org), > [@](#): > > There is no blood limit with the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. If you have a direct ancestor who was enrolled on the Choctaw Final Dawes Commission Rolls, you are eligible for a Choctaw Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood Card (CDIB) > \ > The Tribal Membership and CDIB cards are two different cards. You must first obtain your CDIB by tracing your lineal ancestry back to an enrolled member of the tribe. Then you may obtain your Tribal Membership card, making you an official member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma The CDIB is obtained through the BIA and then tribal membership has to be obtained through application filed with the Choctaw Nation. I know I have ancestors on the Dawes Rolls, so I’m eligible, it’s just a matter of getting all the paprwork done. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/39 "2003-09-09T22:37:12Z")
Thanks a million, gobear. I asked because, IIRC, each Tribe has its own definition of membership. Not everyone who’s Native American gets to be enrolled, as you cited. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![gscotb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@gscotb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gscotb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862/40 "2003-09-10T05:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > **It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone challenged Affirmative Action in court on the basis that race is not defined and that there is no objective criteria for determining the race of an individual** I like this _Gedankenexperiment_: what if every applicant to, say, the University of Michigan, checked off the box marked “black”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-minority-status-on-applications/199862.md?page=3)