# Claiming the word "Neocon" is antisemitic is just another Republican lie. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079 "2003-06-02T06:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/21 "2003-06-02T13:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > When “Zioninst” is used n this context, it’s a pejorative term for “Jew”. Accusing neocons of having “Zionist leanings” is similar to calling someone a “Nigger-lover.” No, it is not. You know very well that my usage is precise and to the point. I’ve defined it in the past, precisely as a descriptive term for a kind of Israeli nationalist position. In the context of the parties, that is indeed accurate. Your implication that I am using it in the context of an anti-Jewish smear is par for the course, but entirely unfounded. > [@](#): > > I just thought you might want to do some research on the subject before you pontificated. Guess I just forgot that you already knew everything. Sorry. Your google search is hardly “research” nor particularly revealing of anything but the somewhat tenuous relationship you have with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/22 "2003-06-02T13:11:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > **Your google search is hardly "research"** Nor did I say it was. I was just giving you a head start if you wanted to do some research. The question is whether the word “neocon” has been used to imply “Jew.” I had imagined that you might want to read the relevant articles to actually check how the term has been used before making up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/23 "2003-06-02T13:14:49Z")
You know, your casual usage of anti-semite in this context has really gotten on my nerves. Let’s clear this up, are you accusing me of anti-semitism? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/24 "2003-06-02T13:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*You know, your casual usage of anti-semite in this context has really gotten on my nerves. Let’s clear this up, are you accusing me of anti-semitism? \*\* The term “Zionist leanings” is typically used as a slur by anti-Semites. I believe you that you didn’t mean it that way. You have never posted anything that made me think you were antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/25 "2003-06-02T13:33:54Z")
Another request for somebody to define “neoconservatism” please. I honestly haven’t a clue. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/26 "2003-06-02T13:45:25Z")
Well there BBC documentry on the neo-conservatives, which included alot of interviews with many of it’s leading lights, which gives a good overview. IIRC the person who coined the phrase “neo-conservatives” is actually Jewish himself and is something of an expert on the movement (though he is opposed to many of it’s ideas). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/27 "2003-06-02T13:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*When “Zioninst” is used in this context, it’s a pejorative term for “Jew”. Accusing neocons of having “Zionist leanings” is similar to calling someone a “Nigger-lover.” \*\* That has to be about the most ridiculous thing i’ve read in a long time. Why can some people not get it through their skulls that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, and that one can be opposed to Zionism, or certain aspects of it, without being anti-Semitic? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/28 "2003-06-02T13:51:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **The Washington Times claimed that a particular Business Week article by Richard Dunham used “neo-con” to mean “Jew.” It would be well to read the [article](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_19/b3832081.htm) itself before making up one’s mind, wouldn’t it? Does the article use “neo-con” to imply “Jew”?** I’ve now read it. I still can’t see how it equates neocons with Jews. > [@](#): > > **1._“The close-knit intellectuals who make up the neoconservative movement have been called…-- and even a Zionist cabal.”_ A “Zionist cabal” translates into a Jewish conspiracy.** The full quote is: > [@](#): > > The close-knit intellectuals who make up the neoconservative movement have been called extremists, warmongers, American imperialists – and even a Zionist cabal. “In their world, good will conquer evil,” says James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. “In many ways, it’s a secular version of religious fundamentalism.” It’s clear that the author is giving a range of opinions that are _not_ his own. I could write a story about Bush, and say “he’s been called a savior, hero and madman”. You would _not_ be entitled to interpret that as me saying Bush is a savior. > [@](#): > > **2. Dunham says, _“The influence of the neocons runs deep in the Bush Administration.”_ If neo-cons are just conservatives, then the statement is almost a tautology. Obviously a conservative administration will be influenced by conservative POVs.** Look, if neocon just meant con, the term neocon wouldn’t exist. It’s obviously meant to convey something other than just conservatism. > [@](#): > > **3. The article never defines “Neo-con”. That’s an important omission, since there no clear definition in general use. The people Dunham is describing do not call themselves a "neoconservative movement."** That _is_ a problem. My guess is that people are grappling with questions like “Who the fuck are these people that now seem to be in charge, and what the fuck is their actual agenda?” > [@](#): > > **4. Donald H. Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney are described as _“two old-fashioned hawks [who] have become key allies.”_ Why are these two men not “neo-cons” themselves, but only “allies”? In what respect are they different from Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas J. Feith, and Richard N. Perle?** I don’t know. I would certainly put Rumsfeld in the neocon camp. I’m not sure about Cheney, and I don’t know what the author’s criteria were. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you put “neocon Jew” into google, you get 765 hits [here](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&edition=&q=neocon+Jew&btnG=Google+Search). Why not check them out before making up your mind? \*\* As others have pointed out, this is completely worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/29 "2003-06-02T14:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > That is a problem. My guess is that people are grappling with questions like “Who the fuck are these people that now seem to be in charge, and what the fuck is their actual agenda?” That would be the proverbial hammer hitting the head. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/30 "2003-06-02T14:03:36Z")
Slate, the Washington Post, and others have called the Perle/Wolfowitz/Feith group the “Likudnik” movement. Calling them this implies that they are Zionist but is in no way anti-Semitic. It is quite accurate in describing their views that peace in the Middle East should be dictated on high from a position of power rather than negotiated through a diplomatic process. The neo-cons and Likud both have a pseudo-imperialist approach to foreign policy which I find extermely scary and simple-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/31 "2003-06-02T14:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by athelas \* > \*\*What are neo–conservatives anyway? \*\* Neo-conservatism is/was a political philosophy that developed in the 60’s-70’s, largely as a reaction to the New Left, and what the neo-cons saw as a breakdown of common values and an increasing “me first” philosophy that stressed individual success and hedonism. It started out in the Democratic party but really found its home among the Republicans. Neocons saw two main causes for America’s moral decline. The first was the philosophy of unrestrained capitalism, which said that everything is for sale, and that every relationship is transactional. The neocons said that even though capitalism was the best economic system, you couldn’t build a society on it. The second was the expanding government and the growth of the welfare state, which encouraged people to rely on the government for their needs, instead of encouraging individual initiative. If you get the chance, read Irving Kristol, who was one of the founders of the movement and can describe it better than I can. You also might want to read Allan Bloom’s “Closing of the American Mind” as well as almost anything by Leo Strauss, but especially his “On Tyranny”. For neocon foreign policy, read Francis Fukuyama or Samuel Huntington (If you read Huntington, read “The Third Wave”, “Political Order in Changing Societies” and "American Politics: The Promise of Disharmony. Don’t read “Clash of Civilizations”, which is kind of an embarrassment.) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/32 "2003-06-02T14:06:20Z")
Attacks on neoconservatives aren’t automatically antisemitic, but there often IS an element of antisemitism in the attacks- particularly in attacks coming from the “paleoconservatives.” If you’re not familiar with the term, well, that suggests you’re one of those who thinks “the right wing” is a monolith. In reality, the conservative “movement” has a lot of factions, many of which don’t much like each other. They may rally around some of the same candidates, but there’s often a lot of tension and mutual disdain. Anyone who reads leading conservative journals has observed this. A Pat Buchanan (paleoconservative) and a Charles Krauthammer (neo) both embrace Ronald Reagan, but for very different reasons. To people like Buchanan, Reagan represented an attempt to reverse the dominant trends in American society and return to a better past. To people like Krauthammer, Reagan represented a resurgence of American power, which could be used to change the rest of the world for the better. To the paleoconservative, the outside world is ugly and evil, and should be shunned. That’s why, all these years later, you’ll still hear Pat Buchanan using the slogan “America First.” To the paleo, the Middle East is a hellhole we should have nothing to do with. To the neo, the rest of the world must be engaged and dealt with, and (ideally) brought around to America’s values. So, you have two sizable groups of “conservatives” with diametrically opposed views of America’s place in the world. Tension is inevitable. And this tension is aggravated by religion and ethnicity. Almost all the paleos are Christians who are far more interested in domestic social issues than in foreign affairs. Almost all the leading neos are secular Jews who don’t much care about combatting abortion or homosexuality. So, when a paleo attacks policies advocated by neos, he’s just liable to betray some hostility toward Jews as a whole, and not just toward the individual neos. Pat Buchanan thinks the U.S. should completely wash his hands of the Middle East, which he thinks will always be a powderkeg. And when he sees Jews neocons advocating a hawkish policy in the Middle East, he’s predisposed to think they’re acting in Israel’s best interests, not America’s. Thus, his rhetoric (and that of his comrades on the far right) increasingly shows a hostility toward Jews. So, in answer to the OP: there is DEFINITELY an element of antisemitism in some attacks on neoconservatives. Obviously, one can disagree with the neos on a host of issues for perfectly valid reasons. But if the neocons suspect there’s SOME antisemitism in the attacks on them, they’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/33 "2003-06-02T14:07:46Z")
I have done a bit of research using the google list cited above. Here’s an ugly quote from some blog called Carol on the web. [http://www.carolontheweb.com/links/weenies.html](http://www.carolontheweb.com/links/weenies.html) > [@](#): > > …And the neocon Republican takeover of the GOP mirrors that of the USA. The difference is their press. Jewish hawks are leaving the Democratic Party in droves, just like Jews are leaving CNN for Fox. Again, it pains me to be the only one talking about the genealogy of CNN… but doesn’t anybody remember the firestorm surrounding Ted Turners demise? Turner wanted CNN to be the voice of the world. THAT meant being an “honest broker” on all things Palestinian. Well, Jews weren’t going to allow that… so he was ousted. Remember that billion bucks to the UN? I’ve always suspected a connection. Especially since that international body has dogged Israel ever since. A billion bucks buys a lot of influence. I think it was his parting shot to Jews for stealing his empire. > > And what’s this nonsense about Fox being the only network NOT owned by Jews?? Murdoch IS A JEW. News Group International’s Chief Executive is usually regarded as a Gentile, but he is a “mamzer Jew”. His father, Keith, although only a low paid reporter, made a fortuitous marriage to the daughter of a wealthy Jewish family - Elisabeth Joy Greene. BTW “mamzer” means “bastard”. It seems clear that this blog used “neo-con” as part of an antisemitic screed. So, the practice exists. The question is how widespread it is. Vanguard News Network is an even [uglier site](http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/archives/newsArchives.asp) – both racist an anti-semitic. Here is a partial list of articles from their archives. > [@](#): > > 4/20/2003 Neocons: What’s the difference between Rumsfeld and walnut veneer? Plastic wood over echt jewish plywood, itz. What Israel intends here. … > > 3/18/2003 Neocons: The Jews At War With America: Neocons don’t understand America, and if they did, they’d hate it. What they call America is AmeriKwa, a remade nation with a made-up history at every … > > 12/31/02 Those Nasty Warmongering Neocons – Dirty Anti-American Jews: They all deserve death. Welfare state at home, warmongering for global democracy abroad. Stealing money from Whites, denying Whites group existence, b … > > 12/31/02 Neocons Are Jews Who Want White Men to Die for Israel: Double loyalty? Not hardly! Jews are loyal only to Israel. Here on Fox News, supplying the war. Get your war on, ‘boo-’ poops. These two-pump chumps … > > 12/31/02 Neocons: Kikes are dangerously arrogant, and it shows up everywhere. Guns aren’t for you, guns are for jews. More dirt headed your way, thanks to jews. Do … > > 12/31/02 Neocons (Jews) and American Warmongering: Good Raimondo piece, although he naturally omits Jews, which is the key to the whole thing. Of course, he is 1/4 Jew himself. What is clear, above all … ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/34 "2003-06-02T14:20:00Z")
Oh, and I agree with Astorian in the above post. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/35 "2003-06-02T14:20:40Z")
**december** , what was the fucking point of all that? Some people hate Jews. Everyone knows that. “Murdoch is a Jew”. No, he’s not. The point being debated here is not whether anti-semitism exists, or whether you can find crap on the internet to support any hypothetical position. Who was really behind 9/11? Aliens. Proof? I found it on the internet: [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/conspiracy020417.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/conspiracy020417.html) > [@](#): > > The reason the tapes from the cockpit recorders of the four hijacked planes have not been released is because the voices they record are not human, but the voices of aliens. Please stop this nonsense, **december** ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/36 "2003-06-02T14:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > The reason the tapes from the cockpit recorders of the four hijacked planes have not been released is because the voices they record are not human, but the voices of aliens. Well, they _were_ aliens (non-US citizens) and many people would call them “inhuman”. . . That’s the kind of reasoning december would make. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/37 "2003-06-02T14:51:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***december** , what was the fucking point of all that? \*\* The OP said it was a lie to claim that the word “Neocon” is antisemitic. My examples refuted the OP. They showed instances where “neocon” was most definitely used as an antisemitic slur. One can still debate just how widespread this usage is. Surely many others are using the term “neocon” without intending any anti-semitic meaning. But, it’s no lie to claim that the term is sometimes used that way. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/38 "2003-06-02T14:53:09Z")
A little Googling reveals many antisemitic attacks on Bill and Hillary Clinton. This demonstrates that anybody who says bad things about the Clintons is an antisemite. Therefore, **december** is an antisemite. ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/39 "2003-06-02T16:24:26Z")
Brilliant research, **december**. A little Googling reveals that Alien abductors are thought to be Jewish. I found proof that people believe this on the [Internet](http://skepticult.org/hotlipz/spaliens.html) so it must be true! (Though I don’t understand the Disclaimer near the bottom of the cited page.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/40 "2003-06-02T16:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by edwino \* > \*\*Slate, the Washington Post, and others have called the Perle/Wolfowitz/Feith group the “Likudnik” movement. Calling them this implies that they are Zionist but is in no way anti-Semitic. It is quite accurate in describing their views that peace in the Middle East should be dictated on high from a position of power rather than negotiated through a diplomatic process. The neo-cons and Likud both have a pseudo-imperialist approach to foreign policy which I find extermely scary and simple-minded. \*\* As someone who’s voted Likud once or twice, I have to say that they’re not nearly as right-wing as the Republicans. That’s one aspect of the Israeli parliamentary form of government - the extremists have their own parties. **december** , for instance, would fit perfectly in the National Union. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079.md?page=3)