# Claiming the word "Neocon" is antisemitic is just another Republican lie. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079 "2003-06-02T06:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/41 "2003-06-02T16:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. “The close-knit intellectuals who make up the neoconservative movement have been called…-- and even a Zionist cabal.” A “Zionist cabal” translates into a Jewish conspiracy. Zionist originally meant “Israeli nationalist” and was turned into a pejorative term later. It connotes the very strong support for Israel that is, as far as I can tell, unanimous among neo-conservatives - even the hyper-Christian ones. Some of the prominent neo-cons are Jewish (Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith), and in fact several of them have advised the Israeli government. **December** , as per usual, is ignoring what the author plainly means. > [@](#): > > 1. Dunham says, “The influence of the neocons runs deep in the Bush Administration.” If neo-cons are just conservatives, then the statement is almost a tautology. Obviously a conservative administration will be influenced by conservative POVs. Neo-conservative is a specific type of conservative. There are also moderates in the administration, the most high-profile one being Colin Powell. John McCain is a conservative, but he’s not a neo-conservative. There’s no tautology here at all. > [@](#): > > 1. The article never defines “Neo-con”. That’s an important omission, since there no clear definition in general use. The people Dunham is describing do not call themselves a “neoconservative movement.” It’s true that it’s not a precisely defined position, but that doesn’t make it an anti-Semitic slur either. > [@](#): > > 1. Donald H. Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney are described as “two old-fashioned hawks [who] have become key allies.” Why are these two men not “neo-cons” themselves, but only “allies”? In what respect are they different from Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas J. Feith, and Richard N. Perle? Rummy and Cheney are players from the Reagan administration and much older hands in Washington, I suppose that might be one difference. They’re not always excluded from the list of neo-conservatives, it was apparently a choice made by this author. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/42 "2003-06-02T16:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FranticMad \* > \*\*Brilliant research, **december**. A little Googling reveals that Alien abductors are thought to be Jewish. I found proof that people believe this on the [Internet](http://skepticult.org/hotlipz/spaliens.html) so it must be true! (Though I don’t understand the Disclaimer near the bottom of the cited page.) \*\* The Disclaimer means that your cite is intended as humor (although I didn’t find it funny.) So, it isn’t really the case that anti-semites are accusing Alien abductors of being Jewish. But, it really is the case that some blatant anti-semites use the term “neo-con” as an anti-Jewish slur. It’s not a lie to complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/43 "2003-06-02T16:45:39Z")
In fact, excluding Cheney from that list is probably a poor choice, since he was so involved with the Project for the New American Century, which has spelling out the ideology of this administration. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/44 "2003-06-02T16:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > My examples refuted the OP. They showed instances where “neocon” was most definitely used as an antisemitic slur. No, your examples did not “refute” the OP. They showed two limited examples of where some individual or small group of anti-semites has used neocon and anti-semitic rhetoric in parallel, without demonstrating that the two ideas were specifically linked _in the general media_. The OP was rather clearly indicating a general usage through either society or sections of the media. Citing Carol on the Web or Vanguard for evidence of a general usage is identical to citing any other white supremacist organization to identify general usage. You can find similar sites that directly link “liberal” and “Jew” in different contexts. (I found several at the Vanguard site, that I won’t link against SDMB policy. In fact, Vanguard expressly labels Ashcroft a Liberal. Were are not talking anything resembling a connection to reality, here.) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/45 "2003-06-02T17:09:48Z")
I appreciate your thoughtful post, **Marley23** , even though we don’t agree. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > Zionist originally meant “Israeli nationalist” and was turned into a pejorative term later. Actually the term “Zionist” was in use before Israel existed. It originally meant someone who supported the formation of a Jewish homeland. But, I agree with you that today “Zionist” has two meanings: _Israeli Nationalist_ is the postive one. Or it’s a pejorative. You are correct that some of the “neo-cons” strongly support Israel. However, Dunham’s entire phrase was _“even a Zionist cabal.”_ A _cabal_ is a conspiracy, a secret scheme or a plot. The word “cabal” carries a negative connotation. The word “Zionist” alone might not be pejorative, but the phrase “Zionist cabal” sure is. Especially because a traditional bit of anti-semitism is the alleged Jewish conspiracy. > [@](#): > > It’s true that it’s not a precisely defined position, but that doesn’t make it an anti-Semitic slur either. No it doesn’t. But, it does raise the question of just what Dunham meant by it. After all, he could have used the term “ultra-conservative” or “far right” or “hawk.” > [@](#): > > Rummy and Cheney… are not always excluded from the list of neo-conservatives, it was apparently a choice made by this author. Indeed it was his choice. That’s what makes it look like _this author_ associates neoconservatism with Jews, even though some others don’t. On preview, I see you have pointed out that “excluding Cheney from that list is probably a poor choice.” You see how that strenthens my point. **tomndebb** , I showed two examples, but unfortunately they weren’t _limited examples_. That gross Vanguard site used neo-con as a Jewish slur in article after article as I showed just from the titles. I disagree with your assertion that “The OP was rather clearly indicating a general usage through either society or sections of the media.” In fact, the OP actually said, “It has **absolutely** no basis in truth, and is **totally** unsupported.” (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/46 "2003-06-02T17:49:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually the term “Zionist” was in use before Israel existed. It originally meant someone who supported the formation of a Jewish homeland. That’s what I meant, but I should have phrased it that way. > [@](#): > > But, I agree with you that today “Zionist” has two meanings: Israeli Nationalist is the postive one. Or it’s a pejorative. You are correct that some of the “neo-cons” strongly support Israel. Kind of you to agree on something that’s a fact. Are you aware of any neo-cons that don’t support Israel? I think it’s a requirement. > [@](#): > > However, Dunham’s entire phrase was “even a Zionist cabal.” A cabal is a conspiracy, a secret scheme or a plot. The word “cabal” carries a negative connotation. The word “Zionist” alone might not be pejorative, but the phrase “Zionist cabal” sure is. Especially because a traditional bit of anti-semitism is the alleged Jewish conspiracy. He IS talking pejoratively about these people. That’s plain. But I did that too. It’s not the same as being an anti-Semite either. He’s calling them a small group of powerful people with an agenda and bad intentions. Since you admitted Zionist doesn’t necessarily mean the whole evil Jew thing, I think your ground is as shaky as ever. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t. But, it does raise the question of just what Dunham meant by it. After all, he could have used the term “ultra-conservative” or “far right” or “hawk.” If he’d done that, you’d have said that “ultra-conservative” or “far right” or “hawk” was an anti-Jewish slur. > [@](#): > > Indeed it was his choice. That’s what makes it look like this author associates neoconservatism with Jews, even though some others don’t. Looks. Like. I think you settled this without me. Looks like does not equal is. > [@](#): > > On preview, I see you have pointed out that “excluding Cheney from that list is probably a poor choice.” You see how that strenthens my point. Excluding Cheney was a poor choice because I would argue he’s at the forefront of this group. But the author also excluded Jewish PNAC members like Eliot Cohen, but that doesn’t strengthen your point a bit, now does it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/47 "2003-06-02T17:50:14Z")
Except that neocon is not used as a racist slur, even in your examples. The authors simply link random adjectives together and throw them all out as pejoratives as long as they include some reference to Jews or blacks. Neocon isn’t _used_ to mean semitic or Jewish, it is simply one more adjective (like Liberal) that gets thrown at people the haters are attacking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/48 "2003-06-02T17:54:46Z")
(Actually, I would disagree with the OP from the other direction. There are rather few Republicans (and only one Republican apologist) in my experience that _claim_ that neo-con is a code word for “Jewish” or “Jewish controlled.” I don’t think there is a great need to defend against an attack that is insignificant.) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/49 "2003-06-02T17:57:24Z")
I kind of like “Neocon.” First you have the prefix “Neo,” denoting a cool kung fu guy in shades and black leather trenchcoat, and then you have “con” which stands for Conservative. I’m picturing Rush Limbaugh dressed in black in one of those slow motion fights while Ann Coulter does somersaults in tight plastic pants. Can I be “Morpheuscon?” ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/50 "2003-06-02T18:17:36Z")
**december** , your Carol on the Web cite also uses the word “Republican” in its screed (right after “neocon” if you’re looking). Does that mean that calling someone a Republican is also an anti-Semitic slur? Or are you just pulling things out of the air again? See, the problem is that you equate all the hateful language in your cites. I can see how “Zionist” is used as a slur in some cases. **Marley23** ’s posts were more helpful in that regard. However, I must point out that equating “Zionist” to “nigger-lover” in your earlier post is ridiculous beyond words. “Zionist” has neither the cultural nor the historical significance of the infamous n-word, and tossing it out as carelessly as you did shows how little you understand about. You criticize others for not doing their homework above, but clearly it’s time do [do your own](http://blackhistory.harpweek.com/1Introduction/RandallKennedyEssay.htm). If you still don’t get it, try reading [this](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375421726/103-0435789-8227867?vi=glance). The real problem here is that you think finding a couple hateful blogs that happen to use the word “neocon” or “neo-conservative” proves your point. They don’t. As I read your cites, I see “neocon” being used as an identifying label, even though what it identifies is unclear. You have not shown that those blogs use “neocon,” specifically, as an anti-Semitic statement. To do so, you’ll have to show how they use it differently than the similar label (also used) “Republican.” Personally, I don’t see a difference. As **tomndebb** point out, its just an adjective, one of many used in the blogs cited. Your point remains unsubstantiated, **december**. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/51 "2003-06-02T18:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **I’m picturing Rush Limbaugh dressed in black in one of those slow motion fights while Ann Coulter does somersaults in tight plastic pants.** And to that I can only say… ew. Ew-ew-ew. At least Coulter’s plastic pants will go with her plastic face… but I can only imagine Rush flapping around as he tries to move in “bullet time.” Yuck. Thanks a heap, **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/52 "2003-06-02T18:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > Actually, a “Neocon” sounds like it should swear alliegence to Megatron, transform into an assault vehicle, & attack Optimus Prime. So the Bush Administration is now being run by evil Decepticons? _That_ would explain a lot… 😉 “Rumsfeld! Cheney! Wolfowitz! Powell! Bush! Transform and merge to form – **NEOCON!** ” (Eh, Devastator would still kick his bumper 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/53 "2003-06-03T11:25:09Z")
this is simply december’s latest tactic. find a keyword and try and dig up the worst examples of people using it, and try and equate the original usage with the base examples he can find. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/54 "2003-06-03T12:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > **this is simply december’s latest tactic.** How else would you disprove a claim that something is has _“absolutely no basis in truth, and is totally unsupported.”_ except by _actual examples_? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/55 "2003-06-03T12:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > **this is simply december’s latest tactic.** How else would you disprove a claim that something is has _“absolutely no basis in truth, and is totally unsupported.”_ except by _actual examples_? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/56 "2003-06-03T13:03:50Z")
P.S., the OP’s allegation was about whether “neo-con” was ever used as an antisemitic slur. So, it doesn’t make sense to now complain that the examples of such use come from anti-Semites. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/57 "2003-06-03T13:16:26Z")
Some people use “physics” as an antisemitic slur. As in, “We don’t need none of that quantum physics Jew science!” Nevertheless, it would be utterly ridiculous to complain that physics is sometimes used as an antisemitic slur. Just like your complaint about “neocon.” ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/58 "2003-06-03T13:22:43Z")
December > [@](#): > > P.S., the OP’s allegation was about whether “neo-con” was ever used as an antisemitic slur. So, it doesn’t make sense to now complain that the examples of such use come from anti-Semites. That wasn’t the OP, you are mistating. He asked whether neo=antisemtic: > [@](#): > > P.S. Since I’m asserting a negative (there are no facts to back up the neocon = antisemitic assertion), it would be silly to ask me for proof. Instead, proof is required for those who think there is a connection. Citing a few anti-semtic sites, is not proof that neocon EQUALS "Jew"con, especially in the mainstream. It only proves that anti-semtics will use whatever means they can to ‘point’ out the ‘jewishness’ in everything, they don’t agree with. As **Avalonian** asked > [@](#): > > december, your Carol on the Web cite also uses the word “Republican” in its screed (right after “neocon” if you’re looking). Does that mean that calling someone a Republican is also an anti-Semitic slur? Using your source, can i HONESTLY now consider Republican an anti-semtic term? if not, why? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/59 "2003-06-03T14:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > **Some people use “physics” as an antisemitic slur. As in, "We don’t need none of that quantum physics Jew science!"** You’re close. The Nazis considered theoretical physics to be “Jewish.” That was fortunate for us, since theory led to the development of the atomic bomb. This point is an important aspect of the recent Broadway hit, _Copenhagen_, which recreated a meeting between Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg. Suppose someone in 1942 had written your version of the OP, **minty** : > [@](#): > > Claiming that theoretical physics is considered Jewish is just another lie. It has absolutely no basis in truth, and is totally unsupported. Well, that would have simply been wrong, because the Nazis did hold that view. **holmes** , the OP was far too strong. It claimed that there was “absolutely” and “totally” wrong to think neo-con was ever used antisemitically, so that anyone who claimed there was any basis at all was lying. If one goes back to [my original comment on the other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187511&perpage=50&highlight=neoconservative&pagenumber=1), I said > [@](#): > > I resent the term “neoconservatives” itself, since it has a tinge of meaning “Jewish advisors who secretly control US policy.” My examples demonstrate that some antisemites do indeed use the term that way, so the word does have a trace of that connotation. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079/60 "2003-06-03T15:12:25Z")
From the OP: > [@](#): > > Claiming the word “Neocon” is antisemitic is just another Republican lie. > > It has absolutely no basis in truth, and is totally unsupported. It was merely a ploy by the republicans because they don’t like the term and figured out a clever way to stop people from using it. > > Discuss. > > P.S. Since I’m asserting a negative (there are no facts to back up the neocon = antisemitic assertion), it would be silly to ask me for proof. Instead, proof is required for those who think there is a connection. **December** I’m not trying to beat a dead horse, but you are wrong. The OP doesn’t “…claimed that there was “absolutely” and “totally” wrong to think neo-con was ever used antisemitically, so that anyone who claimed there was any basis at all was lying.” He’s saying that the word NeoCon isn’t interchangable with Jew, and questioning why anyone would consider it to be. That is not the same as saying that it’s never been used in an anti-semitic way. Please, I’ve heard “flame on” used as a anti-semitic slur, does that now mean that I can call Marvel Comics or the Fantasic Four anti-semitic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claiming-the-word-neocon-is-antisemitic-is-just-another-republican-lie/179079.md?page=4)