# Claims of "Ritual Abuse". Whats the reason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254 "2013-01-24T20:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/61 "2014-03-31T19:09:37Z")
Chiming in to add another voice in support of Dr. Loftus. She’s gorram brilliant, and if you ever have the chance to see her speak I cannot recommend it highly enough. And welcome, **beta**! Great post, and well said. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![beta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@beta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beta)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/62 "2014-05-27T20:53:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And welcome, **beta**! Great post, and well said. Thanks. Thank you! This is an enlightening thread, and it’s good to see so many recommendations for Elizabeth Loftus. Her research, and all the subsequent studies which further support her original conclusions, would be convincing to any objective reader. An important feature of this discussion, in my opinion, is the fact that [there IS no real scientific debate](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/08/a-story-that-doesnt-hold-up/) on this issue. The subject is, for all intents, [settled](http://www.skepdic.com/mpd.html); credible researchers and experts in relevant fields [reject](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allen-frances/multiple-personality-is-i_b_4695915.html) the notions of repressed memories (as described by RA advocates) and Dissociative Identity Disorder. Sadly, when the scientific debate has been lost, some of these advocates resort to outright dishonesty. Something that came to my attention recently is an article from one [Judy Byington](http://www.dysgenics.com/2012/12/02/the-two-faces-of-judy-byington/), retired social worker and author of [Twenty-Two Faces](http://www.amazon.com/review/RHN6CI8IGSUKP/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0095GQ78O), a Satanic Panic-themed “[biography](http://www.amazon.com/Errors-contradictions-inconsistencies-22-Faces/forum/Fx2BXFKFBS9QGFF/Tx2Z5A3A7WC8KZY/1/ref=cm_cd_search_res_ti?_encoding=UTF8&asin=1620240327&cdSort=oldest#Mx1H73DT91JRWM0)”. On her “Child Abuse Recovery” website, accompanying her (entirely unsubstantiated) article, is a [photo](http://www.donotlink.com/framed?35700) of a forensic expert identifying victims at a mass burial site. From Judy’s article: “Thirty small skeletons were discovered in an unmarked mass grave-site at the Port Alberni BC United Church of Canada residential school for native children.” Judy goes on to suggest that the Canadian government is guilty of covering up “child genocide”. If the complete lack of citations weren’t bad enough, here’s the caption from the [original photo](http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/international-commission-on-missing-persons-forensic-news-photo/53243251): Forensics Experts Work On Exhuming And Identifying Srebrenica Victims Caption:BUDAK, BOSNIA - HERZEGOVINA - JULY 12: International Commission on Missing Persons (ICMP) forensic archaeologist, Renee Kosalka from Canada provides works on an excavation **at the Budak mass grave in the Srebrenica Municipality on July 12, 2005 in Bosnia Herzegovina**. \*The site is a secondary grave site - 600 victims were killed and buried in a primary location and later 100 of them were transferred to this secondary grave. \* To call Judy Byington a reality-challenged conspiracy theorist is the most charitable thing one can say about her, yet, remarkably, two prominent RA/DID “experts”, Colin Ross and Joyana Silberg, both endorsed her book. And somehow they are still taken seriously and called in as expert witnesses in trials. I really feel it’s important that mental health “experts” be held accountable for endorsements such as these, since their opinions carry so much weight and have such a profound affect on the lives of others. Just this month, Joyana Silberg was an expert witness in a Maryland court hearing and the Judge found her credible enough to accept her claim that, because it’s still listed in the DSM,\*\* Dissociative Amnesia is accepted within the “relevant scientific community” (yet, in her own workshop presentation at the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation last fall, she herself laments that it’s not). We’ve certainly made progress with regard to the courts catching up with scientific consensus, but we’re not all the way there yet. \*\*Many experts have contested this as well, and lobbied to have Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka Multiple Personality Disorder) [removed from the DSM](http://www.currentpsychiatry.com/the-publication/past-issue-single-view/dissociative-identity-disorder-time-to-remove-it-from-dsm-v/b89ef9cf1c018239981e044cb80a2e5f.html). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/63 "2014-05-28T00:38:47Z")
> [@beta](#): > > (And, harrowing but well worth checking out, an [interview](http://www.process.org/discept/2010/02/08/dr-colin-a-ross-psychiatry-the-supernatural-and-malpractice-most-foul/) with Roma Hart, one of Ross’s former patients. This article links to affidavits and court documents) Hey, I sorta know her from Randi’s board! Yeah, Ross should not be allowed to practice because [he’s a nut:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_A._Ross) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > “In 2008, Dr. Ross applied for the James Randi Educational Foundation’s One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge with the claim that energy from his eyes could cause a speaker, receiving no other input, to sound a tone. In 2010, Dr. Ross published experimental data that supports his scientific hypothesis that the eyes emit energy that can be captured and measured in the Anthropology of Consciousness, a journal of the American Anthropological Association.” As I recall, we got to insult and laugh at him to his internet face. It was fun. ---
**Author:** ![beta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@beta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beta)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/64 "2014-06-24T20:02:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Hey, I sorta know her from Randi’s board! Yeah, Ross should not be allowed to practice because [he’s a nut:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_A._Ross) As I recall, we got to insult and laugh at him to his internet face. It was fun. Hey there dropzone, what an awesome [thread](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=167733)! I’m reading through it now. It’s deeply depressing that Colin Ross, and others like him, are still considered “experts”; it’s alarming that they still have so much influence and the ability to shape public policy. In other news, here’s an excerpt from a [new piece](http://www.dysgenics.com/2014/06/10/the-disasterous-public-parade-of-fraudulent-survivors/) about (fraudulent) Ritual Abuse claimants, and the damage they’re doing to real victims: > [@](#): > > After all the efforts dedicated to getting child abuse issues taken seriously in our society […] > > After all of that - in 1985 children were encouraged to publicly, falsely state that they had participated in the torture and murder of other children – of alleged children, children with no names, no histories, no records, no family members searching for them after they are slain - alleged child murder victims who correspond to no missing person reports, whose remains are never found, who cannot be proven to have ever existed. > > DISASTER! ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/65 "2022-09-15T18:10:58Z")
Dopers, I was going to start a new thread but saw this one already existed, even tho’ it’s 8 years old now. I’m looking for a fact check on these two books: - [Healing the Unimaginable: Treating Ritual Abuse and Mind Control](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1855758822?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) by Alice Miller - [Svali speaks - Breaking free of cult programming ](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1911417037?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) by “Svali” A friend got these from a course so she trusted the books because the professor used them. I.e, when we hear some thing from a “trusted source” we are more open to accepting the claims in an uncritical way. I want to talk her off the ledge, but with kindness. How do you go about evaluating claims like this. What makes you trust something, or not? Bessel van der Kolk and Peter Levine both talk about buried memories in the context of PTSD and they are well respected mental health professionals. They’re more like “stuck” memories that didn’t fully form, not detailed stories like these Satanic tales. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/66 "2022-09-15T18:55:18Z")
The beginning of the Amazon description of the Svali book: > [@](#): > > In order to understand Illuminati cult programming, it is first necessary to understand a bit about the structure and philosophy of the organization. [I think someone we all know had something to say about that group…](https://www.straightdope.com/21341223/does-may-day-actually-commemorate-the-birth-of-the-illuminati) That’s enough to send my bullshit-o-meter off. Several of the posters (@Hari_Seldon , @RivkahChaya, @dropzone ) are still very active on the board, and can probably give you better, more complete answers than I can. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/67 "2022-09-15T18:58:51Z")
Historically (i.e. the 80s “satanic panic”) I’m not sure either party was malevolent or acting dishonestly. The people who had their “hidden memories” revealed actually thought the things they described actually happened, and the people uncovering them believed there was a secret conspiracy and “uncovered” (i.e. used the power of suggestion on children) accounts that reinforced their beliefs. No one (in many cases at least) was deliberately making things up. I heard a great podcast by Jon Ronson which discussed [this](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/believe-the-children/id1592984136?i=1000540368101&itsct=bbc_podcasts&itscg=30200&ls=1&at=1001l38zZ&ct=BBC+Podcasts+website) recently. That is not the case for the current QAnon batshittery. That is 100% [malevolent actors](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/09/qanon-republican-party-congress.html) who know full well its bullshit that will ruin peoples lives (and probably get people killed), taking advantage of that bullshit to achieve positions of power or otherwise get ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/68 "2022-09-15T19:12:07Z")
> [@ArtBeforeScience](#): > > Bessel van der Kolk and Peter Levine both talk about buried memories in the context of PTSD and they are well respected mental health professionals. Well respected by whom? People that already believe, or independent scholars? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/69 "2022-09-15T19:33:10Z")
> [@ArtBeforeScience](#): > > Dopers, I was going to start a new thread but saw this one already existed, even tho’ it’s 8 years old now. I’m looking for a fact check on these two books: > > - [Healing the Unimaginable: Treating Ritual Abuse and Mind Control](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1855758822?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) by Alice Miller Strange, I can’t find Healing the Unimaginable: Treating Ritual Abuse and Mind Control in Alice Miller’s listings of published books. She’s certainly published many books on child abuse and memory, but I don’t think that’s one of them. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/70 "2022-09-15T19:39:53Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Several of the posters (@Hari_Seldon , @RivkahChaya, @dropzone ) are still very active on the board, and can probably give you better, more complete answers than I can. Sadly, dropzone passed away several months back. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/71 "2022-09-15T19:50:33Z")
Aw, crap. Sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/72 "2022-09-15T20:02:55Z")
Checking back through this revived thread, to see if I had posted in it originally (doesn’t look like it). In the early '90s, my former college girlfriend (with whom I had remained on good terms) was dealing with some psychological issues; her therapist “uncovered” memories of SA, involving her parents; this led to a painful estrangement between her and her family, which lasted for several years, before the entire “recovered memory” thing, and the SA issue as a whole, were debunked. Thankfully, she and her family were able to reconcile, but there were years of heartbreak due to it all. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/73 "2022-09-15T20:09:36Z")
Can’t let this old thread about “Satanic Panic” go by without mentioning this “consultant”: > **[Griffis, Dale 1936- | Encyclopedia.com](https://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educational-magazines/griffis-dale-1936)** > > GRIFFIS, Dale 1936-PERSONAL: Born 1936.ADDRESSES: Agent—New Horizon Press, P.O. Box 669, Far Hills, NJ 07931.CAREER: Police officer (retired). Worked as a private investigator, occult investigator, and consultant for ritual abuse and violent trauma... Who helped convict these guys: > **[West Memphis Three](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three)** > > The West Memphis Three are three men convicted as teenagers in 1994 of the 1993 murders of three boys in West Memphis, Arkansas, United States. Damien Echols was sentenced to death, Jessie Misskelley Jr. to life imprisonment plus two 20-year sentences, and Jason Baldwin to life imprisonment. During the trial, the prosecution asserted that the juveniles killed the children as part of a Satanic ritual. > Due to the dubious nature of the evidence as well as the suspected presence of emotional bias... ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/74 "2022-09-15T21:53:32Z")
And only days ago: > **[Boosted by QAnon and mainstream conservatives, satanic panic spreads online...](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/satanic-panic-making-comeback-fueled-qanon-believers-gop-influencers-rcna38795)** > > Baseless accusations are branding people as satanist pedophiles at the speed of the internet — just ask a GOP prosecutor who recently lost re-election. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/75 "2022-09-15T22:19:38Z")
I recently heard about a miniseries about Faye Yager, who operated around this time (ca. 1990) and was financed by her wealthy physician second husband. She operated a sort of underground railroad, ostensibly to protect children from abusive (usually) fathers but in the end, ISTR that it was mostly women who were getting nasty divorces and said the fathers were abusing the children, when they knew they weren’t, to deny them visitation rights or even custody. Do I believe that Yager’s first husband molested their daughter (she claimed to have walked in on him doing it)? Probably. But this underground railroad didn’t guarantee that the children were in school, getting medical care, not being abused by the people they were with, etc. > **[Children of the Underground on FX](https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/children-of-the-underground)** > > Was Faye Yager actually the saint so many people made her out to be? Enter the true story of her Underground and learn the tangled truth about this visionary but haunted heroine. ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/76 "2022-09-15T23:16:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well respected by whom? People that already believe, or independent scholars? By other mental health professionals, who work at teaching hospitals and have certifications. You can look these 2 up. I have read their books but I have never had therapy with either one of them. ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/77 "2022-09-15T23:19:56Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Strange, I can’t find Healing the Unimaginable: Treating Ritual Abuse and Mind Control in Alice Miller’s listings of published books. OMG I made a mistake on her name. It’s Alison Miller. I’m going to amend my first post here. Sorry y’all ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/78 "2022-09-15T23:58:32Z")
> [@ArtBeforeScience](#): > > A friend got these from a course so she trusted the books because the professor used them. I gotta ask. What course were they used in? And if it isn’t close to Doxing the professor, where did they teach? ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/79 "2022-09-16T00:23:41Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I gotta ask. What course were they used in? And if it isn’t close to Doxing the professor, where did they teach? OK. I found out more info from my friend since my first post. - The instructor, not a professor, is ~~redacted by What Exit?~~ - And turns out it was a webinar, not a college course. Could be one of those webinars that therapists can take for continuing education credits. Not sure if this one had multiple sessions like was it a 8-week course or a weekend training, not sure. - She’s already doxxed, or at least called out, on the ~~redacted by What Exit?~~ I don’t want to make this bunny trail about TST but they’re the ones doing things like The After School Satan Club and putting up that giant statue of Baphomet as an act of religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254/80 "2022-09-16T00:29:23Z")
> [@ArtBeforeScience](#): > > I don’t want to make this bunny trail about TST but they’re the ones doing things like The After School Satan Club and putting up that giant statue of Baphomet as an act of religious freedom. Are you saying they are not acts of religious freedom? If so, why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claims-of-ritual-abuse-whats-the-reason/648254.md?page=5)