# Claire Beauchamp, the culturally literate snob **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905 "2009-07-31T19:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/21 "2009-07-31T20:17:38Z")
Snobbery from someone named after the main character in a crappy romance novel. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/22 "2009-07-31T20:20:43Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > frankly _The Bridge on the River Kwai_ and _Lawrence of Arabia_ are film canon. May I ask what you mean when you assert that something is ‘film canon’. Are you using ‘canon’ to mean something other than what it usually means? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/23 "2009-07-31T20:22:00Z")
Uh-oh. I \*was \*totally on **Claire** ’s side with this, but \*\*lissener \*\*had to go and post in there that [she was right](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11398174&postcount=40), so maybe she really is a bloviating snob. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/24 "2009-07-31T20:23:02Z")
Here I was, girding to reflexively mock **smiling bandit** for his novel approach to fighting ignorance (i.e., starting a thread to announce it), and then I read the linked thread, in which **Ms. Beauchamp** does indeed come across as quite the tongue-clucking snob. But hey, **lissener** ’s got your back, so that’s something, right? _ETA:_ Curse your quickness, **bup**. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/25 "2009-07-31T20:24:22Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > May I ask what you mean when you assert that something is ‘film canon’. Are you using ‘canon’ to mean something other than what it usually means? Really? You don’t understand what she means? Or are you just being kind of an ass? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/26 "2009-07-31T20:26:36Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > May I ask what you mean when you assert that something is ‘film canon’. Are you using ‘canon’ to mean something other than what it usually means? What do you think it usually means? As far as I’m aware, both of those films are considered to be on a selective list of high quality, influential films which are “required viewing” for those who wish to be film literate. Although the half of _Bridge Over the River Kwai_ that has the boring American stuff instead of Alec Guinness is pretty forgettable. See also: _Citizen Kane_, _Gone With the Wind_, _On the Waterfront_, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/27 "2009-07-31T20:26:58Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s not like Guiness would now be an obscure actor who did very little outside of his native land if he hadn’t been in Star Wars, eh? Yes, in the sense that Marlon Brando would now be an obscure actor if he hadn’t been in _Superman_. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/28 "2009-07-31T20:30:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not knowing about, not caring about, and being dismissive of, anything that was released before you were born is one of the characteristics of the culturally illiterate. Good thing that’s not what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/29 "2009-07-31T20:30:59Z")
‘Sir’ Alec Guiness was knighted by the Queen in 1959, 18 years before that comic book movie, Star Wars, came out. So, yeah, he had a little previous work experience. In my opinion he _was_ a legendary actor. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/30 "2009-07-31T20:34:39Z")
There’s certainly a very good argument to be made against the modern film canon - for one thing, it isn’t very “modern”, it’s pretty subject to fashions (so the auteur theory gets big and suddenly _Vertigo_ and _The Searchers_ rule the roost?), it’s still too centered on Western films, etc. Only half of _Bridge Over the River Kwai_ holds up, like I said above. But the OP was more of a “you don’t have to watch stuff made before you were born to be culturally literate - who watches that stuff, anyway? People’s dads?” thing, which rubs me the wrong way. It was silly for **Claire Beauchamp** to make a case for Guinness through the theater, however, since obviously I can’t go back in time and see him in a play. I’m sure every neighborhood Blockbuster has _Lawrence of Arabia_, though. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/31 "2009-07-31T20:40:20Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Seriously, I know a bit about Guinness, and I’ve still never gotten around to watching any movies that had him in it other than Star Wars. You ARE trying to pit someone else, right? Not just come in here and masochistically prove that YOU, in fact, are the tard in this fight? Cuz, well, it’s not working. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/32 "2009-07-31T20:40:44Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > What do you think [canon] usually means? I think canon usually means some writing or tenet that a church has made official doctrine, and, by extension, the body of work that is an ‘official’ part of an artist’s or cultural phenomenon’s _oeuvre_. So fanfic is not canon. Whether a _Star Trek_ novel is canon may be a meaningful thing to talk about, to decide whether incidents in that book affect the characters in the work that is canon. Never heard it used to mean the ‘can’t miss’ part of a, well, canon. > [@](#): > > There’s certainly a very good argument to be made against the modern film canon OK, now I really think you don’t know what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/33 "2009-07-31T20:41:19Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > ‘Sir’ Alec Guiness was knighted by the Queen in 1959, 18 years before that comic book movie, Star Wars, came out. > > So, yeah, he had a little previous work experience. In my opinion he _was_ a legendary actor. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The question is whether not knowing that automatically qualifies one as being culturally illiterate. As an example, my brother is a well educated professional who has travelled the world and this country quite a bit. He is well informed on current affairs. He reads quite a lot, both fiction, non fiction, popular magazines, more “literary” magazines, and so on. I’ll bet he couldn’t name three movies Alec Guinness was in. He watches movies sometimes, but Alec Guinness movies is not his cup of meat. Does that make him, as one poster asserts, blindingly culturally illiterate? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/34 "2009-07-31T20:41:50Z")
She took her user name from one of my favorite literary characters (Sept 22!) so as far as I’m concerned, she can do no wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/35 "2009-07-31T20:45:32Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > It’s not a hard-and-fast rule but in general, if you find yourself typing out “_sigh_”, make sure you reread your post a couple of times. Chances are you’re coming off like a rather large douche. I was (mostly) cured of that when someone responded, “I hope you get help with your ennui.” ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/36 "2009-07-31T20:46:48Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I think canon usually means some writing or tenet that a church has made official doctrine, and, by extension, the body of work that is an ‘official’ part of an artist’s or cultural phenomenon’s _oeuvre_. > > So fanfic is not canon. Whether a _Star Trek_ novel is canon may be a meaningful thing to talk about, to decide whether incidents in that book affect the characters in the work that is canon. > > Never heard it used to mean the ‘can’t miss’ part of a, well, canon. > > OK, now I really think you don’t know what it means. From Mirriam-Webster: 3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b: the authentic works of a writer c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works \ 3c is the usage at hand. When you see the phrase “Western canon” or “literary canon”, that means “a set of books educated people can generally assumed to be familiar with”. You know, the one with Shakespeare in it. When you see the phrase “film canon”, you can generally expect to see some _Citizen Kane_ action. When you see the phrase “OMG the _Buffy_ movie is so not canon,” that’s the definition you’re familiar with. Of course there is also the musical canon (interestingly enough, Pachelbel’s Canon in D is a composition in the “canon” form, and it can probably be found in the “musical canon”), canon law, canonical scripture, etc. ETA - “Canon” is one of those words that looks really weird the more you type it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/37 "2009-07-31T20:47:06Z")
Here’s a thought experiment for the stuck-up elitists here abouts. Can anyone deny that sports is huge part of our culture? I mean tremendously, staggeringly, blindingly huge? Does not knowing who won the NCAA Men’s Basketball Championship last year, or the names of the last three Super Bowl MVPS, make someone culturally illiterate? Here’s a clue. There is more to culture than movies. Much much more. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/38 "2009-07-31T20:47:48Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > It was silly for **Claire Beauchamp** to make a case for Guinness through the theater, however, since obviously I can’t go back in time and see him in a play. I dunno, there are stage actors of the past who are still famous and culturally relevant. Shakespeare and John Wilkes Booth, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/39 "2009-07-31T20:50:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I dunno, there are stage actors of the past who are still famous and culturally relevant. Shakespeare and John Wilkes Booth, for instance. For their acting? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905/40 "2009-07-31T20:53:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Here’s a thought experiment for the stuck-up elitists here abouts. Can anyone deny that sports is huge part of our culture? I mean tremendously, staggeringly, blindingly huge? > > Does not knowing who won the NCAA Men’s Basketball Championship last year, or the names of the last three Super Bowl MVPS, make someone culturally illiterate? Here’s a clue. There is more to culture than movies. Much much more. Look, if we were talking about “Oh my god, you philistine! You haven’t seen _Last Year at Marienbad_?!”, you might have more of a point there. _Bridge Over the River Kwai_ is a movie about a badass British army guy, a badass Japanese army guy, and a badass American army guy. There is a prison camp escape and a scene where they get the special effects by throwing a real train off a real bridge. It’s hardly a film with no popular appeal. ETA - and looking down-thread, it even has the “Hitler Has Only Got One Ball” song as the musical contribution. I mean, really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/claire-beauchamp-the-culturally-literate-snob/504905.md?page=3)