# Clarence Thomas secretly accepted luxury vacations from GOP donor without disclosing **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 6, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252 "2023-04-06T14:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/423 "2023-05-09T19:18:44Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I think this might be the result of a difference in definition of corruption. I think we can both agree that corruption is more than “shady stuff my political opponents do” I don’t think a guy with $100 million is going to become a puppet for the sake of $133K or a free trip on a nice yacht. I can buy the subconscious influence argument maybe but I don’t believe that Thomas is making these decisions because he wants to ride on big yachts. Well, what you said was it would be stickier if HC had interests at stake, and that you couldn’t find anything they disagreed on. You said show you what HC interests were getting favored. If it doesn’t matter whether HC has interests at stake, and it doesn’t matter whether they agree or disagree, then I guess one way to describe that is a difference in definition. Is the answer to my question it doesn’t matter how often Clarence Thomas does the things HC wants him to do? You keep bringing up the ACLU, so just for the record… If Debbie Archer gave millions of dollars to Sotomayor’s family, took her on trips, had little special girls’ club ceremonies in the woods where they chanted and jumped around or whatever they do, had pictures painted of them drinking cosmos on the patio, sent her family to school, owned her mom’s house, was in charge of various organizations that gave gifts and donations to Sotomayor’s family’s interests, and Sotomayor never reported any of it… what exactly about that being corrupt is complicated? Yes, it’s like people in the ACLU doing the same thing, except they do not. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/424 "2023-05-09T19:19:28Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Corruption usually involves an abuse of power or the sale of official acts. How could we possibly know if Thomas was leaking opinions or working behind the scenes to Crow’s advantage or something else? Unlike the president, SCOTUS phone calls aren’t monitored by third parties, their deliberations are secret, and so on. That’s why they have disclosure rules – so we can all see who might be affecting a Justice’s judgement, it’s all out in the open. Except when it’s purposely hidden, as in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/425 "2023-05-09T19:47:49Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > This may be a definitional issue. > > Corruption usually involves an abuse of power or the sale of official acts. > > Failure to report is not what I normally think of as corruption. Unethical behavior is not always corruption. We do NOT need a quid pro quo: > The **Appearance of [Corruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption)** is a principle of law[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appearance_of_corruption#cite_note-1)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appearance_of_corruption#cite_note-2) mentioned in or relevant to several [SCOTUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCOTUS) decisions related to [campaign finance in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_in_the_United_States), while the basis of the principle ‘corruption’ refers to dishonest or illegal behavior for personal gain.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appearance_of_corruption#cite_note-3) Corruption has existed since ancient times, and there are a series of factors that cause the appearance of it. On the other hand, corruption adversely affects these factors. In the process of fighting against the appearance of corruption, both the government and different organizations take steps to prevent it. - [SOURCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appearance_of_corruption) Supreme Court justices should apply that rule more stringently than any other judge. Yet, they seem the most immune to it and Thomas has flouted this rule. A rule that has been part of the judiciary since we had a judiciary. This is not a new principle. It is one Thomas was taught when he was in school. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/426 "2023-05-09T20:30:40Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Like I said, I think undermining faith in the judiciary based on reporting failures rather than actual corruption is **almost** as irresponsible as undermining faith in our elections. And you think people questioning unethical practices that have come to light are the ones undermining faith in our judiciary? > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I mean the ACLU and federalist society is in front of the court all the time and they routinely provide travel, meals accommodation to probably every justice on the court and noone thinks that is corruption. Have the justices reported those trips? Because if they have, the odds are that it was totally proper. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/427 "2023-05-09T22:20:44Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I don’t disagree that this is not a great situation. But the court cannot be seen to buckle to political pressure and certainly not to political pressure from the legislature. John Roberts has been Chief Justice for more than 17 years. If he wanted to address this without appearing to buckle to outside pressure, he’s had plenty of time. And God forbid the Court should be seen to do the right thing under public pressure. It’s not like the people of this country are supposed to have any say in how it’s run. > [@](#): > > Like I said, I think undermining faith in the judiciary based on reporting failures rather than actual corruption is **almost** as irresponsible as undermining faith in our elections. One difference is that the people questioning Thomas’s reporting failures are responding to a thing which _actually happened_. It’s a subtle difference from the election deniers, but significant, I think. If the Supreme Court, or any of its members, didn’t want people questioning their ethics, then they should have behaved more ethically. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/428 "2023-05-09T22:22:24Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I think he might very well understand how bad it looks and maybe that is why he didn’t report but I wouldn’t impeach someone on that or undermine the independence of the judiciary. if his fellow justices don’t see fit to admonish him, I think that’s the end of it. Understanding how bad it looks and doing it anyway is pretty fucking stupid for a supreme court justice. Even children can understand that. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/429 "2023-05-09T23:12:45Z")
This is nuts. I work GIS for County Government. 30 years now. Lots of mapping/surveying involved. When I first started I was told IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that I could not even recommend a private surveyor to anyone. Accepting, or giving any type of gift (grift) was strictly off limits. Couldn’t even give advice other than “You need a surveyor”. I most certainly couldn’t name one. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/430 "2023-05-10T02:32:27Z")
I once had lunch with a Wall Street Journal reporter (in a business context) and she flatly refused me paying for the lunch. She said it was very strictly forbidden by the newspaper that she accept even a lunch (and it was a very normal priced lunch…like $15-20 each). Granted that is not government but shows the importance of not accepting even minor gifts to preserve at least the appearance of impartiality. How much did Thomas accept? $500,000 and more? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/431 "2023-05-10T09:23:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I once had lunch with a Wall Street Journal reporter (in a business context) and she flatly refused me paying for the lunch. She said it was very strictly forbidden by the newspaper that she accept even a lunch (and it was a very normal priced lunch…like $15-20 each). But what if she was going to write a nice article about you anyway? /s ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/432 "2023-05-10T16:16:10Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Sotomayor recuse herself any time the ACLU files an amicus brief? She accepts travel and accommodations from them. I don’t think she should recuse herself, do you? Apparently, Mr. @Damuri_Ajashi has been banned but, to answer, a judge should be impartial towards the parties arguing the case and should avoid all conduct that could give any doubt about their impartiality. If a person is liable to argue before the court then you should not accept anything from that could reasonably be construed as a gift. If you have accepted something from someone that could reasonably be interpreted as a gift and then that person shows up on your court, then you should recuse. If you’ve been asked to speak at someone’s event in a parking lot, somewhere in Poughkeepsie, and they’re putting you up at a mid-tier hotel for one night then it’s unreasonable to interpret that as a gift. If, on the other hand, you’re being flown out to a resort in the Maldives for two weeks, so you can give a 15 minute speech, then that’s most reasonable to interpret as a gift - regardless that there is, technically, that speaking component. And, likewise, if a justice ONLY ever accepts speaking requests from a certain party - e.g. the ACLU - I would personally put that down as bad policy. As said, they’re supposed to avoid seeming like they’re partial to any particular policy or platform. So, even ignoring gifts, if there seems to be a lot of fairly focused, consistent, cooperative/collusionary activity between a judge and any party liable to appear before the court then they should be recusing for any related case, until they’ve demonstrably changed their ways. And, yes, ideally Congress would codify this in some way. But, they should also consider why we’ve gotten to this point and try to fix that as well. If you’ve reached the top of your profession and hold one of the most prestigious jobs in the country, it might feel like you’re not being valued appropriately if you can’t afford the occasional luxury vacation. A base salary of $270k and government health insurance is probably not that. Yes, they can sell books but that’s basically a whole other job that they have to do just to keep up with the Joneses when - in theory - they should be in a position that they no longer need to keep up with the Joneses. The whole purpose of lifetime employment, etc. is that a judge should be beyond corruption. The idea is that they’ve got life set and don’t need to care anymore. Having to write books - which, mind, need to be opinionated and partisan enough to be novel and interesting so that they’ll have an audience - so you’re not living in an apartment in DC, is not living beyond corruption. They should get a stiff bump in their salaries. But they should also be policeable. Making a law that says, “You need to report your gifts.” But, that doesn’t carry any penalties, is not valuable. Perhaps it’s meant to be implied that the failure to report is a crime worthy of being removed from office, but that’s not stated. It should be clearly stated so that, if ever it happens, there’s no ambiguity about whether to impeach and no ambiguity about whether to remove. And, likewise, if impeachment and removal are political processes that are too complicated to resolve in Congress then - like everything else - they should be delegated out to an external agency. Congress has given away its powers before and there’s nothing to say that they can’t do so with impeachment and removal. Maybe you can’t give those to the Executive branch but, Congress can and does form its own professional agencies like the CBO and the OTA. And maybe you can’t let them make the big decisions, but you might be able to do a straight up or down, fifty-fifty vote on following their advice to make it more achievable. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/433 "2023-05-10T19:07:01Z")
For those interested the PBS show Frontline has done a two-hour documentary on Clarence and Ginni Thomas: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wJuRx1wARUk/maxresdefault.jpg "Clarence and Ginni Thomas: Politics, Power and the Supreme Court (full documentary) | FRONTLINE") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJuRx1wARUk) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/434 "2023-05-10T19:43:03Z")
I keep reading this thread, with the sort of « can’t stop looking at a slow-moving car wreck » vibe. And then I think about our current scandal about a Supreme Court of Canada judge, who’s alleged to have got in a fight with a U.S. Marine in a drunken brawl. Our judge is off duty, while the complaint is being investigated by the Judicial Council. Judgments on cases that he sat on are being released with an asterisk by his name: " \*Justice Brown did not participate in the decision." Speculation at the bar is is that he may be forced to resign. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/435 "2023-05-10T19:49:08Z")
You guys are _totally_ blowing your shot at becoming a world-class Kleptocracy or Kakistocracy. Y’know … if you care. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/436 "2023-05-11T01:49:17Z")
Garden-variety liberal democracy suits me just fine, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/437 "2023-05-11T13:46:48Z")
Crow blows off Senate Finance Committee inquiry via his mouthpiece. "… Committee Chairman Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore, requested all of the luxurious undisclosed gifts, trips and payments Crow has provided to Thomas over the years. In particular, Wyden wanted detailed descriptions of all of Thomas’ free flights on Crow’s private jets as well as trips on his yacht. The senator also requested the federal gift tax returns for gifts made to Thomas or those related to him. Wyden also asked for information pertaining to three Georgia properties Crow purchased from [Thomas and his family](https://www.theroot.com/can-supreme-court-justice-clarance-thomas-actually-be-s-1850374886)…" > **[Billionaire Harlan Crow Won't Give Up Clarence Thomas](https://www.theroot.com/harlan-crow-wont-give-up-clarence-thomas-1850425291)** > > Thomas has faced renewed calls for his resignation in lieu of his most recent scandal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/438 "2023-05-11T16:49:57Z")
Forget about impeachment. Isn’t some of this simply criminal? Some of those gifts surely should be reported as income. I can’t imagine he reported any of it. Can’t the IRS (who, like, work for some (D) type in the White House) simply go arrest the dude? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/439 "2023-05-11T17:33:13Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Isn’t some of this simply criminal? I don’t think there is a crime without some kind of quid pro quo. And I don’t see any allegations that he took in money that was unreported. Note that if someone takes you on a trip somewhere, that’s not income. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/440 "2023-05-11T21:36:24Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Isn’t some of this simply criminal? > Some of those gifts surely should be reported as income. I can’t imagine he reported any of it. Can’t the IRS (who, like, work for some (D) type in the White House) simply go arrest the dude? I hadn’t thought about this angle. Surely someone paying for his ward’s tuition must constitute some form of income. Hmm, it would be interesting to hear an expert opine on this approach. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/441 "2023-05-11T21:46:46Z")
If it’s in exchange for services provided by either the Justice or his grandchild then it’s income to them. But if the Justice provided services it’s a straightforward bribe. But if no services are provided or expected then then it’s a gift possibly (most likely) reportable by the giver, not the receiver. But this is all rules for little people to whom rules apply. Not billionaires and Supreme Court justices. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252/442 "2023-05-11T21:51:35Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > But if no services are provided or expected then then it’s a gift possibly (most likely) reportable by the giver, not the receiver. Curses! Foiled again! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarence-thomas-secretly-accepted-luxury-vacations-from-gop-donor-without-disclosing/982252.md?page=23)