# Clarification requested : "As a political group, Christians are sneaky, hypocritical, and dishonest." **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [January 25, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411 "2021-01-25T01:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/21 "2021-01-25T14:49:11Z")
My own take on that by now is: “OK, look, that was badly worded, and out of context is an unfair accusation, but it has been so established and now it’s beginning to look like demanding retraction and contrition”. And it ties in to a larger debate involving not just this but other even more fraught issues, as to what things in what contexts are we going to give a presumption of hateful intent or trollery. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/22 "2021-01-25T15:34:31Z")
No, not seeking a retraction. I am still seeking clarification on the modding. **Hari** ’s mod note to **Wendall Wagner** said that **TriPolar** had clearly limited his comment to “As a political group, Christians…” which seemed to make it okay, and then said that WW was being a jerk for not quoting that limitation. Personally, I don’t see how that limitation: “As a political group Christians are sneaky, hypocritical, and dishonest” changes anything. It is still a blanket statement that any Christian who works in a political group is sneaky, hypocrtical and dishonest. As I said in the other thread, that is a clear example of stereotyping and attributing bad characteristics to members of a particular religion, albeit only those engaged in political action. Yet the mod note to **Wendall Wagner** seems to say that’s an acceptable limiting phrase. As **Wendall** says, I just don’t understand. **What\_Exit** says that even with that limitation, **TriPolar** ’s statement is boarderline hate speech and trollery, but **Hari** seems to be saying to _Wendall_\* that the reference to “As a political group…” is a limiting provision and seems to make it okay. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/23 "2021-01-25T15:37:37Z")
The comment under discussion was repulsive, and the half-hearted non-apologies, clarifications and qualifications that followed really didn’t help. I agree completely with those who commented that had the same remark been made about other religious groups, it would not have been tolerated at all. I’ll also point out that the first mod note in the thread wasn’t in response to the comment, it actually _defended_ the comment and “explaining” it in such a way as to de-claw it ([here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/86)). Seems to me that defense or qualification of the comment should have been left up to the poster. And then a different mod merely offered “guidance” to the author of the comment, but then backed off even that. And then that mod noted another poster, directing that poster to stop commenting about TriPolar’s post, and defended TriPolar in that mod note. Astounding. I’m not surprised that I’m not the only one to point out that this would not have been tolerated had it been about, say, Jews. Or Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/24 "2021-01-25T15:47:38Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > To clarify, I do not think **TriPolar** ’s post was OK. It was close to a warning. His explanation helped but his choice of words was terrible and should be better clarified in the future. I (and plenty of others) have been “warned” for a lot less. The post was flat-out, unambiguous bigotry, and it was _defended_ by another mod (not you), acting as a mod. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/25 "2021-01-25T16:02:44Z")
I don’t think it’s necessary to have to attach long, complex qualifiers every single time - “as a political group, white evangelical Southern Christians”, for instance, rather than just “as a political group, Christians” any more than it is necessary to attach a lot of qualifiers to “Islam is for the most part a repressive religion against women.” That would bog discussion down and make it almost impossible in some cases. As long as we know what is meant, it works. As a group, a group is a group. I don’t think anyone misses that there are always exceptions. But a group is a group. Haven’t there been a thousand “Trump voters are \_\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_” comments made, even if there are always exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/26 "2021-01-25T16:07:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What was wrong with my explanation? He didn’t say “all Christians.” He used “as a political group” as a limiter. His goal was specifically to not broad brush Christians, but to limit it to a particular political group. He didn’t limit it to a particular political group. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Anyone who says they thought **TP** meant any other group is lying or faking their outrage. I vehemently resent that. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Could you just accept that I did not mean what you are saying that I did? Could you just accept that you need to actually say what you mean, and that if you say something else instead people are going to justifiably react to what you said and not to what you wanted them to read instead? How about 'I’m sorry, I phrased that really badly, what I meant to say was . . . "? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > All I wanted was a discussion of Christian groups that started out supporting Trump and whether any of them have turned away from that original position because of what he has done and/or said since they took that position. The post I made in that thread that was directly on that subject, with cites, got pretty much ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/27 "2021-01-25T16:16:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > don’t think it’s necessary to have to attach long, complex qualifiers every single time - “as a political group, white evangelical Southern Christians”, for instance, rather than just “as a political group, Christians” any more than it is necessary to attach a lot of qualifiers to “Islam is for the most part a repressive religion against women.” Long, complex qualifiers? No, it’s not always necessary to attach qualifiers like that. But some qualifiers are absolutely necessary. The comment under discussion was > As a political group Christians are sneaky, hypocritical, and dishonest. There is no qualifier in there that limits the comment to a subset of Christians. It can only be read as being about all Christians (which is why I find the defense of the comment, or the “explaining” of the comment by mods so wrong). Your hypothetical comment about Islam is limited by the words “for the most part,” and in any event is not about Muslims, it’s about Islam. That’s admittedly a fine distinction, but not an unimportant distinction. > [@Velocity](#): > > Haven’t there been a thousand “Trump voters are \_\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_” comments made, even if there are always exceptions? Absolutely. And I’ve disagreed with many of them, and even, if memory serves me right, taken at least one to the Pit. That said, there’s a key difference – a comment about “Trump voters” is about an action, something the person has done. It’s inherently limited to those who have acted in a certain way at a certain time on a certain issue. It’s self-limiting. The limitation is built in. It’s _reductio ad absurdum_, but it’s like saying “all drunk drivers are careless sociopaths.” One could argue the point, but it’s clearly only about those who have behaved in a dangerous manner. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/28 "2021-01-25T16:19:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What was wrong with my explanation? He didn’t say “all Christians.” He used “as a political group” as a limiter. His goal was specifically to not broad brush Christians, but to limit it to a particular political group. One doesn’t have to include the word “all” for a comment to be all-inclusive. If I say “Ruritanians are sneaky thieving people,” it’s immediately clear that I mean _all_ of them. “As a political group” doesn’t limit the comment at all. It doesn’t imply that the comment describes only a subset of Christians. > [@BigT](#): > > I see no sign he was trying to sneakily attack all Christians. No do I. There was nothing sneaky about his/her attack. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/29 "2021-01-25T16:39:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The post I made in that thread that was directly on that subject, with cites, got pretty much ignored. Your post was much appreciated. I know I was the OP, but if people are incapable of discussing a topic without widening it up to a ridiculous level just to vent about their pet bugaboos, then perhaps that topic should die a quiet death, and maybe brought up again later. My topic was about the attitudes of a specific group of Christians about a certain politician after certain events took place, and it turned into self-serving shit not long after it was opened. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/30 "2021-01-25T18:27:49Z")
Well, since they supported Biden, perhaps not. And again even American catholics are by no means a monolithic block. They aren’t even all anti-abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/31 "2021-01-25T18:30:30Z")
Never mind. I was going to invite you to a thread about whether or not Catholics are politically just as bad as Catholics, but it’s probably pointless. If you want to start a thread, go ahead, this isn’t the place for that discussion, but I’m not going to bother. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/32 "2021-01-25T19:06:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I know I was the OP, but if people are incapable of discussing a topic without widening it up to a ridiculous level just to vent about their pet bugaboos, then perhaps that topic should die a quiet death, and maybe brought up again later. My topic was about the attitudes of a specific group of Christians about a certain politician after certain events took place, and it turned into self-serving shit not long after it was opened. Yeah, it seems like everyone’s hackles are highly raised across a range of topics. Which bothers me because that means having to walk on eggshells all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/33 "2021-01-25T19:35:13Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As a political group Catholics are sneaky, hypocritical and dishonest They have amply demonstrated themselves to be so. Every time a vote came up allowing for public funds to be used by religious schools, I remember the Sunday sermons cutely skirting the politics and ending with ‘you know how to vote’. The same was true of political issues relating to abortion, birth control and church employment. Also, Chaplin Priests sprinkling holy water on military vehicles fits the bill when it’s placed in the context of the ‘Prince of Peace’ or ‘turn the other cheek’. Not unique to Catholics, but that’s the above quote. However this is best applied to Organized Religions (corporations) rather than individual members. The phrase ‘as a political group’ fits Religious Corporations very well. . ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/34 "2021-01-25T21:15:43Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I was going to invite you to a thread about whether or not Catholics are politically just as bad as Catholics I personally think they’re exactly as bad. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/35 "2021-01-25T21:36:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > To clarify, I do not think **TriPolar** ’s post was OK. It was close to a warning. His explanation helped but his choice of words was terrible and should be better clarified in the future. And yet people keep coming into this thread to post exacty the same thing. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/36 "2021-01-26T00:47:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Could you just accept that you need to actually say what you mean, and that if you say something else instead people are going to justifiably react to what you said and not to what you wanted them to read instead? > > How about 'I’m sorry, I phrased that really badly, what I meant to say was . . . "? He did that! That’s the thing that is puzzling me about this thread. You guys keep responding like you stopped reading the thread at the point where the mods told him he need to clarify. And he did so. He apologized for the misunderstanding, and explained what he meant. Exactly what you say he should have done. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > He didn’t limit it to a particular political group. But that was his intent. That was how those of us who didn’t get upset read it. And it is what he clarified and said he meant. Yes, that wasn’t clear. The other parsing is also valid. You can read it as an attack on all Christians who ever act as part of a political group. But now that he’s spelled out what he meant, I don’t get the insistence that the attack interpretation is the only possible one. I, as a Christian myself, did not interpret it as referring to all Christians. Several other posters also did not interpret it that way. And he has made it clear that is not what he meant. So what is left? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/37 "2021-01-26T03:04:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > How about 'I’m sorry, I phrased that really badly, what I meant to say was . . . "? > > He did that! No, he (he? I don’t know. Maybe you do.) didn’t. Tripolar said in that thread, in response to complaints about the post in the op: > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/64): > > I’m talking about people who strongly tie their politics and Christian identity. > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/101): > > What was the broad brush attack? I specified Christians as a political group, not all Christians as someone said and was noted for. I can certainly expand on what I mean by Christians as a political group if anyone is interested in discussing the subject. > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/111): > > I didn’t want to limit myself to Evangelicals, they have a recognizable name these days, but there are plenty of people with a political identity that they state is based on their Christian identity. It’s usually a two part spec, specifying ‘Christian’, but associating some other philosophy, like Christian Conservative. It isn’t simply the label either, they will identify their politics as being Christian in nature, and then have some set of political values/causes/whatevers to go with it. And they are sneaky, they are hiding the details of their political philosophy. They use the ‘Christian’ as both a shield and a battering ram, but they rarely reveal a consistent christian philosophy in any detail. I believe underneath they are economic elitists, and moral elitists, and quite often white supremacists. They believe they are superior people morally and use Christianity as their justification. They also believe they are economically superior as well, believing they are due a better deal than others, and their representation among the wealthy and the upper middle class often unrecognized. > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/112): > > Sorry, I’ll try to be clearer. But I as you say, isn’t that the fault of those political factions appropriating the terms? > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/117): > > I explained what I meant. I apologize if anyone took it to mean something else. So what is your agenda in pursuing this now? > [@Is there a strong Christian backlash to Trump's sedition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-strong-christian-backlash-to-trumps-sedition/930895/122): > > I am not sorry for what I meant in the original post. I am sorry that my words were taken that way, and more directly, my words were not sufficiently clear to avoid misunderstanding. But I am not going to apologize for what I intended to say, that there people who identify themselves politically as Christians, often associating with other political philosophies as well, who hide their true political motivations behind those labels. None of that reads to me like ‘I phrased that really badly’ or ‘I shouldn’t have said it that way’ or anything else of the sort. All of it reads to me as TriPolar saying that the language used was perfectly fine, that TriPolar doesn’t understand how anyone could have read it as constituting a broad brush attack, and that TriPolar’s insisting the problem’s entirely with the people who read what was actually said instead of reading TriPolar’s mind. “I am sorry that my words were taken that way” is not at all the same statement as ‘I’m sorry that I said it that way’. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/38 "2021-01-26T05:55:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, since they supported Biden, perhaps not. The ones with actual political pull, [not so much.](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/us-bishops-urge-biden-to-reject-abortion-rights-after-deeply-disturbing-statement-80985) Hell, just talking about hypocrisy, even the supposedly neutral and vanilla “Family Guide to Faithful Citizenship” ends by telling Catholics to follow the example of St Teresa like she wasn’t actually a horrible example to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/39 "2021-01-26T06:01:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The ones with actual political pull, [not so much.](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/us-bishops-urge-biden-to-reject-abortion-rights-after-deeply-disturbing-statement-80985) How is that not voting for him or supporting him? There are a good number of things I disagree with Biden on also. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411/40 "2021-01-26T06:04:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How is that not voting for him or supporting him? I was saying that their anti-abortion stance makes them “just as bad” as Evangelicals, regardless of who they support. Although I would not call openly disagreeing with his stance “supporting him” in any case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarification-requested-as-a-political-group-christians-are-sneaky-hypocritical-and-dishonest/931411.md?page=3)