# Clarkson is right on this - people who kill themselves via train **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144 "2011-12-05T17:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/41 "2011-12-05T23:48:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In 99% of cases, there wouldn’t really be a meaningful discussion. No loved one is going to say, “Oh, I am all behind you in your decision to kill yourself! I’ll call the funeral home right now!” No, the “discussion” will be your loves ones convincing you to commit yourself to a hospital. The moment you say, “I want to die”, that’s it. No one is really going to care why you want to do it, because you’re instantly branded as crazy and “in need of help.” > > 'Tis easier to make your arrangements, write a good note, and just do it. Maybe, but then we should certainly address that. As I said, this is happening in Holland. I think (IME) people there would be fairly open to discussing it. Of course they will start with “we’ll get you help and you will change your mind”, that’s the whole point and their right to try. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/42 "2011-12-05T23:56:38Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Maybe, but then we should certainly address that. As I said, this is happening in Holland. I think (IME) people there would be fairly open to discussing it. Of course they will start with “we’ll get you help and you will change your mind”, that’s the whole point and their right to try. I guess my point is someone who is truly feeling suicidal, particularly because of depressive reasons, doesn’t believe in any “rights” like this. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/43 "2011-12-06T00:12:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I guess my point is someone who is truly feeling suicidal, particularly because of depressive reasons, doesn’t believe in any “rights” like this. I see, and you’re probably right for many people. Though I would think many people considering suicide also feel guilt about leaving people grieving. I think it would help a lot if it became more common place to discuss these feelings. But I think you’re correct in that that particular form of selfishness is perhaps inherent to the depression. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/44 "2011-12-06T00:18:40Z")
Suicides of the “jump in front of the train” kind want as many people as possible to know they died. As opposed to those that just want to die, so they shoot themselves in the head or overdose on sleeping pills. So the solution - make it a rule not to publicize the name of the train-front-jumper, make the disruption as short as possible, and clean it up fast and anonymously. Call it a “Herostratus solution”. Just don’t botch it up as Greeks did. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/45 "2011-12-06T00:52:56Z")
As someone who has spent decades thinking about suicide, a very long time ago I decided that I would never kill myself by [cop, train, bus, catgirls, black Friday Walmart shoppers…]. I wish there was a simple neat way to do, but there really isn’t, at least not one I have access to. If suicide is selfish, what do you call forcing me to go on living in this quite hell that is my mind just to protect the feelings of my mother and my ex? I don’t want to hurt them needlessly but I am sooo tired. Also someone is going to have to clean up after you die no matter peaceful or violent it is. It sucks but so does life. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/46 "2011-12-06T01:18:41Z")
The statistics on “success rate” for suicide methods are pretty interesting. There’s very few methods that have a high success rate without a chance of leaving you crippled or brain damaged if you don’t succeed. Shooting yourself in the head only has about a 70 percent chance believe it or not (people flinch). And in the UK guns aren’t available of course. Hanging as most people can do in a home (short drop) is incredibly painful and has a big chance of leaving you brain damaged if it’s not fatal. Jumping is not as fatal as you’d think either and the fatality rates for overdoses are less than 10 percent, usually with permanent organ damage for survivors. The figures are in this book. > **[Suicide and Attempted Suicide: Stone, Geo: 9780786709403: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Suicide-Attempted-Geo-Stone/dp/0786709405)** > > Suicide and Attempted Suicide \[Stone, Geo\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Suicide and Attempted Suicide I don’t think people that kill themselves via train are selfish, I think they’re desperate… really desperate and train is one of the only methods left that is almost certain to succeed, quick and you’d guess painless via instant unconsciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/47 "2011-12-06T01:52:18Z")
I agree wholeheartedly with post #45! I spent my 20’s wanting nothing more than to die but I’d had - amongst many less morbid things - two things hammered into my head: 1) suicide hurts more than any other form of death 2) don’t make an innocent person responsible. Perhaps this is telling, I dunno. There are no suicides - that I know of - in either side of my family. Those two ethics saved my life. I did everything in my power to accidently overdose or get street-crimed but they failed. I wanted an accident and put myself in the way of them. I’m currently pretty damned pleased that it didn’t work. I’ve lucked into a pretty decent life and I’m happy I stuck around for it - but. I hated my family the whole time because they wouldn’t let me leave. I loved them then and now and I didn’t want to hurt them any more than my death had to. But I wanted my death and consideration for their feelings about it got in the way. If you want to do yourself in then I say more power to you. You’re sick of this place and want to roll the dice on the next one feel free. But don’t involve others more than you have to. Eventualy someone is going to find you and have to deal with your corpse wherever/however you die. Suicide is always a selfish option. But expecting you to keep suffering in order to prevent their suffering is also selfish. If you splatter your brains all over the living room - or anything analogous - you know your spouse or kids are going to find you and you’re saying FUCK YOU!!! DEAL WITH IT!. If you pitch yourself infront of a car or train or cop then you’re an equally selfish fuckwad because you forced someone to deal with killing you and all the questions that come with it. For you it’s simple (or not) lights out. For buddy that whacks you it’s a lifetime of questions/guilt. As far as the commentator goes - sorry I didn’t recognize his name and I’m too loazy to go back and find it - I can cite you much more extreme and offensive shit by “comedians” who don’t actually mean it but are raising the extreme to make a point. Zeke ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/48 "2011-12-06T02:06:59Z")
TBH, I think that most ‘one-unders’ as they’re known on the tube aren’t planned acts of selfishness. They’re desperate people standing in front of a relatively easy way to die (painful, yes, very much so, but they almost all are, and this has a higher chance of success). Letting someone else kill you is selfish, I guess, but I doubt that’s what’s going through most people’s mind just before the train does. Though they’re lucky if it is that instantaneous. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/49 "2011-12-06T03:10:31Z")
BTW, what is sometimes done about it in London, in newer stations below ground (like some on the Jubilee Line), is so have a barrier between the whole track and the platform. This also means there can’t be any accidental falls or murders, which have[occasionally happened.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5160516.stm) There are also other mechanical and technological ways to prevent a train from hitting someone on the track, at least with newer trains - I’m not sure of the details, however. The man who pushed the other man into the train’s path had recently been discharged from a local mental health centre; a friend of mine at the time was part of the team that had assessed him as not needing in-patient treatment because he didn’t meet the criteria for danger to self or others. Apparently he went straight back to the unit and said ‘well? Am I mad enough now?’ Course, at no point in his assessment had he said ‘if you discharge me I’m going to push a stranger under a train.’ The reason it’s being treated in a technological way rather than any other is that, as well as suicide being a fact of, er, life, there’s a certain compelling element to the drop from the platform and the rushing train that makes that form of suicide a tempting notion to many, even those who aren’t depressed. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/50 "2011-12-06T09:20:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s your opinion. I think he is first and foremost a comedian This is the first time I have ever seen anyone call him a comedian. He’s first and foremost a television presenter, followed by author, newspaper columnist and finally panel show contestant. Comedian doesn’t come into it at all. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/51 "2011-12-06T09:32:00Z")
my favorite barb of his was in top gear concerning apollo 11: “man walked on the moon using german technology, and american money.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/52 "2011-12-06T10:19:17Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > This is the first time I have ever seen anyone call him a comedian. > > He’s first and foremost a television presenter, followed by author, newspaper columnist and finally panel show contestant. Comedian doesn’t come into it at all. All I know him from is _Top Gear_ and \*Q.I., \*and in both shows he is willing to do or say just about anything for a laugh. Do you really think TG is supposed to be a serious show about cars? It’s a mixture of quips, deadpan absurdist humor and blowing shit up. Like Clarkson himself, it has no agenda other than to entertain. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/53 "2011-12-06T10:30:45Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > _“Clarkson said trains should resume their journey as soon as possible following a suicide and leave the body parts for scavenging animals.”_ > > Would this calculated callousness lessen the pain felt by the engineer, or the friends and relatives of the suicide? > > No. It would increase it. Perhaps it would make train suicides less common. Miletus had a problem with women committing suicide which they handled by parading the dead corpses through town, naked and without all their finery. This was too much for the vanity of prospective female suicide candidates. Generally there is nothing wrong with treating people with the same amount of respect and consideration they are willing to give others. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/54 "2011-12-06T10:36:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > All I know him from is _Top Gear_ and \*Q.I., \*and in both shows he is willing to do or say just about anything for a laugh. Do you really think TG is supposed to be a serious show about cars? It’s a mixture of quips, deadpan absurdist humor and blowing shit up. Like Clarkson himself, it has no agenda other than to entertain. TG used to be a serious show about cars. Clarkson used to be a presenter of TG when it was a serious show about cars. He started off as a journalist, first with newspapers and then moving to automotive stuff. I think part of this is that we have differing views of what a comedian is and that, as a Brit, I’ve been exposed to him far more than you. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/55 "2011-12-06T11:13:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s always been popular to bash suicidal people for being selfish, and I’ve always found it extremely distasteful and callous. I think you are conflating two things. The usual “suicide is selfish” thing is based on the idea that you owe it to those who depend on you, and friends/family who will be upset if you suicide, not to do so. I can see an argument that one’s right to decide not to go on living trumps the preferences of those who will inevitably be upset or inconvenienced by that decision. However, what we are talking about here is completely different: we are talking about _going out of your way to upset or inconvenience others who don’t have to be upset or inconvenienced_ by your suicide. I don’t think it is at all hard to see a lot of clear blue sky between the levels of selfishness involved in these two concepts. And personally one is arguably acceptable and the other utterly is not. As to Clarkson, he’s a troll and a buffoon, but even a broken clock… ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/56 "2011-12-06T11:28:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > we are talking about _going out of your way to upset or inconvenience others who don’t have to be upset or inconvenienced_ by your suicide. See my post #46. I’d argue that most cases of suicide by train are spontaneous, or are by people that have tried and failed using other less certain methods. Suicidally depressed people are not thinking “ok I’ll take myself out but I’ll bollocks up everyone’s trip to work as well because I’m a prick”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/57 "2011-12-06T11:33:04Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Well, that’s just what he’s like - hence my comparison to old Rush in the OP. Last time he made the news [he suggested that strikers should be executed in front of their families](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de1L2KLdFcw). You do realise that these lines are scripted, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/58 "2011-12-06T16:02:10Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > However, what we are talking about here is completely different: we are talking about _going out of your way to upset or inconvenience others who don’t have to be upset or inconvenienced_ by your suicide. They’re not going out of their way to upset or inconvenience other people. They’re going out of their way to kill themselves. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/59 "2011-12-06T16:26:09Z")
Would a thread about the most ethical way to kill oneself be considered out of bounds on Great Debates or IMHO? I am not sure how to research this in any posted rules. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144/60 "2011-12-06T17:33:01Z")
Clarkson certainly isn’t anything like Rush Limbaugh. He’s a libertarian in US terms. More like PJ O’Rourke but on TV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clarkson-is-right-on-this-people-who-kill-themselves-via-train/605144.md?page=4)