# Class indicators in USA society? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 17, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330 "2014-04-17T07:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/81 "2014-04-20T01:59:19Z")
Piano lessons as a kid. Obviously some poor people have piano lessons too, but _most_ rich people had piano lessons as a kid. And they got to practice at home on something with good tuning. Aspirational middle-classes often pay for their kids to have piano lessons - it’s more prestigious than any other instrument, even including the violin. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/82 "2014-04-20T03:03:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ve noticed that the more overtly religious someone is, the more likely they are to be poor or working class. In my experience, it’s the bottom AND the top who are overtly religious. Mega churches with coffee bars therin are not for people with empty pocketbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/83 "2014-04-20T03:37:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > People from higher socioeconomic brackets seem more likely to have hair that looks healthy and well-cared for. Maybe styled, or cut sans cereal bowl. Hair is dead. Healthy hair would be zombied hair. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/84 "2014-04-20T05:33:23Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > taking French in school (seriously, how useless),. Useless? It’s one of the most spoken and most-commonly-official languages of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/85 "2014-04-20T06:30:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Useless? It’s one of the most spoken and most-commonly-official languages of the world. It’s not even in the top 10 for native speakers or total number of speakers. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/86 "2014-04-20T10:31:05Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Quiet vs. loud vacations. A family with a “cabin on the lake” where they vacation each year is almost definitely class aware, but to make sure, you have to listen to how loud the activities are. Sailing, cross-country skiing, and hiking are patrician, jet-skis, snowmobiling, and four-wheeling are plebeian. This one is interesting in that the plebe options can cost more money than the classy ones. I guess you can derive class by how they finish skiing. High class: Reaching the bottom of the mountain Low class: Letting go of the rope. 🙂 > [@madmonk28](#): > > Paul Fussell’s _Class: A Guide Through the American Class System_ is a well known book on the subject. Below is a (somewhat dated) link to a quiz to find your class based on the contents of your living room. > [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2012/05/begin\_with\_a\_base\_score037567.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2012/05/begin_with_a_base_score037567.php) Sigh. I didn’t even make it into double digits. I scored a 7. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/87 "2014-04-20T10:45:43Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > … taking French in school (seriously, how useless), … I grew up near the Canadian border, where French is an official language, and being somewhat skilled in that tongue got me two of my first three jobs. Useless to YOU maybe but I certainly got some utility out of it. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/88 "2014-04-20T11:04:54Z")
I would say French considered upper-class varies by geography. If you live in Europe ( **Nava** ) or close to Canada ( **Broomstick** ), then it is helpful and not a class-marker. Even if you take it in Louisiana, at least that has historical reasons, and some parts of Florida have significant Haitian populations to make French (and Creole) learning non-class markers. If you live in Texas or Georgia or Iowa, and take French in high school, then it seems to be more of a class-marker. I had an upper middle-class roomate. I know about saving money in the bank. She knew about investments, and by the time I met her (early 20s) had some thanks to her parents making her put the money she did during high-school into investments. That concept, that idea, that way of thinking. Yea, definitely not middle middle-class. She also took French in high school (living in a place without significant French-speakers) instead of Spanish, probably also due to the higher status given to French vs Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/89 "2014-04-20T11:46:41Z")
I speak French and Mandarin. French is among my more marketable skills. It comes up in every job interview. Mandarin, so far, has been very useful for ordering at Chinese restaurants and that’s about it. Among people doing any kind of international work, French is hugely in demand as it’s essential to working with Africa, and relatively few Americans ever get professionally proficient in it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/90 "2014-04-20T14:09:48Z")
I think most people are forgetting that class isn’t just about the affectations one picks up from their family and friends growing up. It’s about access to wealth and power, which is why it is such a controversial topic. I can only speak to my particular class, as by definition, people are isolated from other classes. Therefore, anyone of a lower class appears sub-human and anyone in a higher class appears as an elitist over-privileged jerk. My class is mostly highly educated professionals (consultants, finance, accounting, law, medicine, etc), typically a top 50 college, possibly with a professional degree as well. Both my wife and I have MBAs. Currently I live in Hoboken, NJ, a satellite city across the Hudson River from New York where both me and my wife work. We own several properties, one on the water with a view of Manhattan. Our more status-conscious friends prefer to rent in Manhattan or rent or buy in Brooklyn. Typically, as they start families and space becomes an issue, they move to a house in suburban Westchester County, NY, New Jersey or Long Island. People in lower classes live in neighborhoods in Jersey City or un-trendy parts of the outer boroughs or crappy suburbs like Secaucus, NJ. Higher classes live in multi-million dollar Soho lofts or luxury condo towers in Manhattan. Both of us are working professionals (me in technology and management consulting, her in finance). Focus on professional achievement and success is a key indicator of our class. In contrast, lower classes often view people like us with suspicion or contempt for our placing a priority on work. Upper classes tend to not have to worry about picking a lucrative career. They can either do what they love or are sort of placed into these careers by default. One of the main indicators of class IMHO is that lower classes must bust their ass all their lives for a chance to get a job at Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, Mckinsey or other prestigious high powered firm. Upper class kids are largely sent there (whether they like it or not) by default by parents who have steered their career their entire lives. Lower classes have no idea what I’m talking about. One of the key indicators of our class is the expectation that we should be working in a field we love. As a class, we tend to look down on people who don’t. Most of my class tend to get hired by companies right out of college and work our way up to middle or upper management. A lot of senior executives just seem to be placed in their positions as if they were there since the founding of the company. Annual household income in the $250 k to $500 range. Most of our income is through our salary, which indicates that we are largely dependent on our employers and maintaining skills that keep us employable. In contrast, upper classes must focus more on skills that maintain and grow their wealth. My wife an I travel several times a year for vacation. I proposed to her in Paris and we honeymooned in Italy. Frequently, we have found ourselves invited to various destination weddings in places like Aruba, Brazil, Greece, and South Africa. Cost usually isn’t an issue, but we do have to consider it. Lower classes can’t travel. Upper classes may own multiple homes abroad. In NYC, having a place to go for the summer is sort of a “thing”. My family owns a modest beach house in a quiet part of Long Island that my (working class) grandfather built decades ago. Lower classes tend to rent a house in places like Seaside Heights, NJ (where The Jersey Shore was filmed) or not at all. Upper classes tend to own homes in Seaside Heights, NJ or out in the Hamptons. Town and size of house tend to be closely tied to class. Lower classes are told never to drink on the job or to only have one or two beers at a company function. I have routinely been drunk with coworkers, bosses and clients. And not even that drunk compared to others (although, not acting like a drunk ass is always a good idea, regardless of your social class). The kid from the mail room who blazed up a joint at a company function was fired the next day. Lower classes must worry about showing up late to work. The lower the class, the more intolerant the lateness. My boss asks me if I will be in the office tomorrow. I haven’t decided yet. I’ll post some more as I think of them. > [@Dave Hartwick](#): > > Beer. People are weird about beer. The class conscious will drink only bottled beer, preferably imported or craft. However, actually making beer and/or becoming a beer nerd is, I think, a likely working-class indication. Hipster consumption of PBR, incidentally, is just a trendy (and quite clever) way of coping with financial embarrassment. Not sure about that. Becoming a beer nerd or wine nerd or any of that sort of thing strikes me as a hobby for people with a bit of extra income trying to look “hip”. I would think the working class would find drinking anything other than cheap beer “pretentious”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/91 "2014-04-20T15:24:49Z")
I think going on the internet and writing about how high class you are personally is indeed a very strong indication that you belong to the higher classes. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/92 "2014-04-20T16:13:34Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > It’s not even in the top 10 for native speakers or total number of speakers. So what? The usefulness of a language depends on how widely it’s spoken, and how many people speak it as a second language. Mandarin, Hindi, Russian, Bengali, Indonesian, Portuguese, Arabic, and Japanese are of limited use unless you actually plan to do business or travel extensively in the countries where they’re native, or in countries immediately adjacent to them. French is useful in most of Europe and much of Africa, an somewhat in the Americas. By your criterion one would conclude that Mandarin and Spanish would be more useful to know than English, and they’re not. I speak Spanish and (much more poorly) French. Both have been very useful to me. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/93 "2014-04-20T16:20:15Z")
I took Arabic when I was in high school because I wanted to be different. There were some well-to-do kids in the class, but most were working-class kids who were Muslim and/or simply a fan of Malcolm X. Or who were like me and just wanted to be different. I imagine there were quite a few kids who took French just because their middle names were Monique or Renee and because they wanted to know the words to “Lady Marmalade”. And because you’d get to go to a French restaurant at the end of the year and pig out on quiche and crepes. Maybe there was a time when French was a “rich people” thing. But I don’t think that’s the case now. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/94 "2014-04-20T16:32:56Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I think going on the internet and writing about how high class you are personally is indeed a very strong indication that you belong to the higher classes. Is that directed towards me? Or perhaps the French speaking **even sven**? I wasn’t aware that this thread was restricted to people who made below a certain income threshold discussing rich people affectations and behaviors they may have seen on TV or in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/95 "2014-04-20T16:33:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I imagine there were quite a few kids who took French just because their middle names were Monique or Renee and because they wanted to know the words to “Lady Marmalade”. And because you’d get to go to a French restaurant at the end of the year and pig out on quiche and crepes. > > Maybe there was a time when French was a “rich people” thing. But I don’t think that’s the case now. Yeah, we even had French classes at my ghetto-ass high school which a lot of people took. I’d imagine it was because there was a foreign language requirement and something like 60% of the school already spoke Spanish. > [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I think going on the internet and writing about how high class you are personally is indeed a very strong indication that you belong to the higher classes. My butler and I agree. We also find this thread to be pretty funny. My assistant typed this message, btw. Classy people have their assistants type for them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/96 "2014-04-20T16:33:45Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > If you live in Texas or Georgia or Iowa, and take French in high school, then it seems to be more of a class-marker. I wouldn’t necessarily think that the foreign language you learn in school has much to do with anything; most schools have a range of languages that you can choose from- mine (a Jesuit private high school) had Latin, Spanish and French, and the local public schools in the district surrounding the school offered French, German and Spanish, and both my school and the local district’s high schools required a fair amount of foreign language to graduate (on the college track for the public schools). I don’t think that someone choosing say… French over Spanish means anything in that situation, other than you’re being pretentious over practical- you couldn’t draw any conclusions from who took what foreign language at any level. I mean, I took Spanish with the express intent that it would be something useful in the future in Texas. Houston Independent School District had quite a few more languages on offer, depending on what school you went to and whether or not it was an academic magnet of some kind, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/97 "2014-04-20T16:48:10Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > . > My butler and I agree. We also find this thread to be pretty funny. My assistant typed this message, btw. Classy people have their assistants type for them. Your assistant typed this? How, shall I say . . . plebian. My assistant is way too important for this sort of thing, her assistant deals with these tasks. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/98 "2014-04-20T16:54:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Is that directed towards me? Or perhaps the French speaking **even sven**? I wasn’t aware that this thread was restricted to people who made below a certain income threshold discussing rich people affectations and behaviors they may have seen on TV or in the movies. Huh? Are you perchance making a personal slight against my background. Naughty naughty, we all know that is not the way to conduct oneself in this forum. I find your tendency to infer things from what I say rather tedious, haven’t we been here before? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/99 "2014-04-20T18:31:57Z")
> [@Neutral](#): > > This is my post from another forum, but tweaked up a bit… > > UPPER CLASS: > Typical Household Income ranges: > $200,000 and above (most places) > $275,000 and above (expensive regions) > > Most Common Educational Attainments: > > - Graduate Degree > - Bachelors Degree > > Notes: > > - Wealth usually passed down > - Extremely high job security > - Much more insulated from effects of recession than other groups > - Children attend top notch schools > - Children go off to top universities and/or expensive private schools > - Vacations extremely common > - Very literate in investments > - Old money doesn’t splurge on cars; new money oftentime does See, I think Upper Class is actually much higher income, especially if you live in an expensive area like New York or San Francisco. And IMHO, Upper Class means most of your income is derived from dividends on assets you control. Typically ownership in a business or real estate assets. Or you just earn a shit-ton of money through some special talent like sports or acting. $275 k household income is two adults working as lawyers, computer programmers or mid-level corporate managers in New York City. Doing well. But not doing well enough to be owning yachts and Porches and paying [$60 k a month rent to live in a skyscraper designed by Frank Gehry.](http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/real-estate/high-life-60-000-month-penthouse-new-york-gehry-article-1.1126022) I don’t know who those people are, but they would be part of the upper classes. At least a heck of a lot more upper than anyone I know. > [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Huh? Are you perchance making a personal slight against my background. Naughty naughty, we all know that is not the way to conduct oneself in this forum. I find your tendency to infer things from what I say rather tedious, haven’t we been here before? Then I misunderstood your post. Chalk it up to white upper-middle class guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/100 "2014-04-20T19:54:06Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > At our house we call it the “rim ratio”. I think it’s a pretty good indicator of class in most situations. > > The price of a car’s wheels over the price of the car itself (W/C). Class of the owner is inversely proportional to the result. > > If the typical rim ratio approaches 1.0, you should probably avoid that neighborhood. Tatto to teeth ratio (TTTR) can be quite telling. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330.md?page=6)