# Class indicators in USA society? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 17, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330 "2014-04-17T07:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/141 "2014-04-22T19:43:45Z")
I can’t contribute anything on US class indicators, but this thread is really interesting. Now I’d love to know which different perceptions are caused by a different country and which by a different class background. What’s striking is how many things are mentioned that I would have suspected to be more strongly correlated with money than class. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/142 "2014-04-22T19:53:47Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > Ironically, I would say that people who spend a lot of money on their hair (and/or nails) are more likely to be part of a lower class. You forgot to say, “on Saturday” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/143 "2014-04-22T23:12:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Reading. All the poor people I know don’t read or limit it to their Bibles. > > Newspaper subscriptions. Only 17% of households here in SA subscribe to the local newspaper, these subscribers overwhelmingly located in the more wealthy parts of the city. > > Attitude towards, and handling of, money (like **Dangerosa** said.) Admittedly, I am not in the U.S.A., but surely that cannot really be true. I’m damn poor and read a lot, and no, not the Bible, (although, I might now that you’ve mentioned it - all that sex and violence and stuff). Seriously, I have trouble believing that all poor people don’t read, whether for instruction or recreation or both. There must be quite a few people on this board that are poor but read a hell of a lot. Surely? Newspapers? OK, you win. I no longer buy newspapers, and yes, that is to do with saving money, but I am able to read more of them on the web than I could ever afford to buy. And I get to avoid the enormous pile of paper waiting to be recycled problem 🙂 Attitudes to money? Well, one tries, but it is pretty hard to save when there is only ever enough, or not quite enough. Hmm, when I give it more thought, books are expensive, and public libraries closing to reduce municipal costs, so it might be difficult to get hold of books. However, with charity shops and exchanging with friends, there can still be some. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/144 "2014-04-22T23:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Celyn] Admittedly, I am not in the U.S.A., but surely that cannot really be true. I’m damn poor and read a lot, and no, not the Bible, (although, I might now that you’ve mentioned it - all that sex and violence and stuff). Seriously, I have trouble believing that all poor people don’t read, whether for instruction or recreation or both. There must be quite a few people on this board that are poor but read a hell of a lot. Surely? [/QUOTE] Surely there are but this board is an exception in this case, as in many things. Reading is usually considered a major indicator of class in countries, simply because countries with a low literacy rate tend to be poorer. In the country I live in, it is considered one of the most important indicators of class standing in society. Here “street smarts” are held in much higher regard to “book smarts”, to such a degree that the population reads an average of 3 books per year and one third of the population has _never_ finished a book. Needless to say, it’s a Third World country. This is the same case in the US (though certainly not to such a degree), where “street smarts” and “country know-how” are seen as features of the working class and are better perceived socially than scientific and technical education. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/145 "2014-04-22T23:30:22Z")
> [@Sahirrnee](#): > > … > The island has it’s own church, it’s own school, it’s own police force. > Non residents don’t get on the island unless they have a good reason. When construction workers would see me coming, they had no idea I wasn’t a resident and they _ran_, not walked but _ran_ to get any equipment that may be blocking the road. The island’s trash truck was not a normal trash truck, it had a door that was opened to put the trash in and then immediately closed. No trash smells allowed on the island. The residents don’t drag their trash to the curb either, the trash man runs up their driveway to get the cans, dumps them, and the returns them, upright with the lids on. > There is no sign of work anywhere, even the landscape/construction workers seemed to be invisible as they went about their jobs. … This island sounds as though it belongs in a scary story involving a Big Nasty Plague that arrives on the island and then all the outsiders get to survive. 😃 It might be different in the States, but I understand from a friend who delivers food that the poorer people (around here, anyway) are generally more generous in terms of tipping the delivery driver than the well off. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/146 "2014-04-22T23:57:25Z")
> [@The\_Batman](#): > > Surely there are but this board is an exception in this case, as in many things. > > Reading is usually considered a major indicator of class in countries, simply because countries with a low literacy rate tend to be poorer. In the country I live in, it is considered one of the most important indicators of class standing in society. Here “street smarts” are held in much higher regard to “book smarts”, to such a degree that the population reads an average of 3 books per year and one third of the population has _never_ finished a book. Your good points mean that I might have to backtrack a bit here. :smack: I used to teach Adult Literacy/Adult Basic Skills (although only in a voluntary way - so have no special qualifications therein), and, because it was a while ago, I am perhaps forgetting things that I ought to know. What I mean is, that the statistics for people who only read about three books per year are pretty horrifying here in Britain too. But I have to remember that reading, _per se_, is not all that wonderful, compared to knowing how to repair plumbing or sort out a dead car engine, or to cook great food. > [@The\_Batman](#): > > Needless to say, it’s a Third World country. I see your point, but now I give it more thought, I suppose the same thing is common in our so-called “developed” countries. > [@The\_Batman](#): > > This is the same case in the US (though certainly not to such a degree), where “street smarts” and “country know-how” are seen as features of the working class and are better perceived socially than scientific and technical education. And we do , of course, have the stereotype of the absent-minded professor, or the “intellectual” type whose head is too far in the clouds and is regarded with the same sort of benevolent bemusement as is accorded to the village idiot. 😃 I now realise my posts scarcely fit the topic, so how about brash jewellery? You know enormous earrings, gold (looking) neck chains? Those would seem to be a sort of social class thing, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/147 "2014-04-22T23:58:08Z")
Here’s one that I’ve noticed: Poor people don’t have much on their walls. There may have one wall where they have all family photos hanging, but most of their living room walls will be bare. (The exception are grandmas. They will have every picture of every baby ever born in the universe hanging up on their walls, along with at least one picture of Jesus, JFK, and/or MLK.) People from higher classes can afford artwork to put on their walls. None of their walls will be “blank”. And you won’t see a ton of family pictures. Everyone in the family gets only one or two pictures. I’m sure family portraits themselves are indicators of class, but I can’t articulate how. K-Mart studio portraits seem lower class to me. School pictures with the laser-beam backgrounds make me think “low class”. The same with Glamor Shots. Why, I don’t know. And I also don’t know why when I see something like [this](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LnrdcrZQoTw/TeNOBPgYPEI/AAAAAAAABV4/m2FmIEgwDnU/s1600/All+denim%252C+all+hats.jpg), I assume the family is just “middle class” rather than rich. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/148 "2014-04-23T00:50:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Here’s one that I’ve noticed: > > Poor people don’t have much on their walls. There may have one wall where they have all family photos hanging, but most of their living room walls will be bare. > (The exception are grandmas. They will have every picture of every baby ever born in the universe hanging up on their walls, along with at least one picture of Jesus, JFK, and/or MLK.) Aha! I suddenly wonder whether the grandparent people feel **obliged** to have a picture of every single child and grandchild on their walls, just so that no-one will be offended. > [@monstro](#): > > People from higher classes can afford artwork to put on their walls. None of their walls will be “blank”. I’m inclined to think that at least one wall being ‘blank’ is quite good. So now I know where I belong on the scale, but that’s all right. 🙂 However, forgetting about ‘proper’ art for a moment, don’t lots of people have some really trashy pictures on the walls? > [@monstro](#): > > Why, I don’t know. And I also don’t know why when I see something like [this](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LnrdcrZQoTw/TeNOBPgYPEI/AAAAAAAABV4/m2FmIEgwDnU/s1600/All+denim%252C+all+hats.jpg), I assume the family is just “middle class” rather than rich. I think I’d have to assume that it was a deliberate joke. Perhaps a sort of sponsored Wear-Blue-Denim-To-Support-Local-Charity-Day? ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/149 "2014-04-23T00:54:27Z")
> [@delsina363](#): > > …I actually sorry a man asking for change the other day, with a cardboard sign, wearing a North Face. 😕 > > Crazy, sad world we live in.☹ Bear in mind, though, that the man might have acquired this North Face thing by means of a charitable gift. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/150 "2014-04-23T00:59:54Z")
> [@The\_Batman](#): > > Here “street smarts” are held in much higher regard to “book smarts”, to such a degree that the population reads an average of 3 books per year and one third of the population has _never_ finished a book. Needless to say, it’s a Third World country. That’s a common attitude among the working class / blue collar types in the USA as well. “Street smarts” is superior to “book smarts”. “Going with your gut” is superior to “reason and logic”. “Working with your hands” is superior to “working with your mind”. It’s not surprising really. Blue collar working class types tend to have less disposable income and tend to work in fields where they “do” stuff. Often the stuff they do might be dangerous if not done properly and some of it is actually really complicated and requires real skill. So the mindset would be to stick with what has been proven to work, with what produces immediate results, with what’s practical. Particularly if you are dealing with some snooty, entitled college kid who doesn’t know nothin’ about nothin’ 'cept what he read in some fancy textbook. It sort of relates to [Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs). Who care’s about your ideas for “self actualization”? We have to get these girders welded before lunch or we don’t get paid! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/151 "2014-04-23T01:26:43Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Admittedly, I am not in the U.S.A., but surely that cannot really be true. I’m damn poor and read a lot, and no, not the Bible, (although, I might now that you’ve mentioned it - all that sex and violence and stuff). Seriously, I have trouble believing that all poor people don’t read, whether for instruction or recreation or both. There must be quite a few people on this board that are poor but read a hell of a lot. Surely? Remember the US is a large and diverse place. Sure, there are poor folks who read voraciously - I happen to be one of them. But there’s a difference between someone such as myself, raised middle class and dropping into poverty through various misfortunes, and people such as some of my in-laws, who come from generations of poverty. I have in-laws who don’t read because they _can not_ read, they are functionally, and in a few instances, fully illiterate. They’ve been caught in multiple generations of hard-scrabble living, often in jobs that required little or no ability to read. The parents didn’t need to read to survive (never mind that might have been bare survival and no more) and don’t see it as a necessary skill, so they don’t promote it in their children and certainly don’t read to their children. While there is some, slow change (the younger generation can at least spell their names and read headlines) most of them have no books in their homes whatsoever, not even a Bible despite being rabidly religious. Needless to say, there are some cultural gulfs between us. (Also between my spouse and them - he was the first of the family to go to college and while he doesn’t read for enjoyment he is quite literate). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/152 "2014-04-23T01:31:29Z")
> [@Sahirrnee](#): > > I have known some very very poor people and some very very rich people. > Between pet sitting and delivering newspapers I got to know quite a few people who live in the 21056 zip code. These people don’t just have money, they reek of money. Interestingly, according to the Wiki for Gibson Island, MD, 21056 is on Forbes list of “Most Expensive Zip Codes” just behind my old zip code of 10003 - Manhattan’s East Village. I don’t know if it was money, but my neighborhood reeked of something. All my money got me was a rented studio apartment with one exposed brick wall and the classic Manhattan apartment view of the next door neighbor’s building ten feet away. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/153 "2014-04-23T04:42:19Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I think teeth are a bigger indicator than hair. You can be poor as fuck and still have a friend or cousin who does your hair in exchange for babysitting or whatever. But you probably don’t have a friend or relative who you can trade with for braces and professional teeth-whitening. > > Also, not everyone’s hair needs much work to look extremely healthy. Your teeth can look perfectly fine without much work if you’re lucky, but they’re not going to look like a movie star’s teeth. That’s what I was going to say. But, in the US we confuse wealth and class a lot. They are actually separate. A college professor with a moderate income is in a different class than a guy with a high school education who owns a carwash who in fact makes more money. And they both know it. Speech, dress, habits of thought, manners, where you and your friends take vacations, and many other things, indicate class, not wealth. Bad teeth indicates poverty, not class, though at that level there may be no difference. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/154 "2014-04-23T11:12:42Z")
The relative health of the hair would indicate wealth. The hairstyle indicates class. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/155 "2014-04-23T14:14:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The relative health of the hair would indicate wealth. > > The hairstyle indicates class. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/156 "2014-04-23T14:44:13Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > But, in the US we confuse wealth and class a lot. They are actually separate. A college professor with a moderate income is in a different class than a guy with a high school education who owns a carwash who in fact makes more money. And they both know it. > > Speech, dress, habits of thought, manners, where you and your friends take vacations, and many other things, indicate class, not wealth. Identifying with a particular “class” is simply a way for people with more to feel entitled to having more and for people with less to feel morally or intellectually superior. It’s like Old Money types who look down on nouveau riche. The idea that someone of “low birth” can rise up to their level of wealth through determination, hard work and entrepreneurship is a threat to their sense of innate superiority. So they adopt an attitude that the pursuit of wealth is “gauche” or “unseemly”. Except that sort of attitude is a luxury of people who already have wealth. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/157 "2014-04-23T15:26:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Identifying with a particular “class” is simply a way for people with more to feel entitled to having more and for people with less to feel morally or intellectually superior. Or a person may identify with a certain class to explain why they deviate from the expectations attributed to their wealth. A rich person may cite his working-class roots as why you’ll find him fixing up his motorcycle on the weekends instead of off on the golf course. Or if you have an expansive vocabulary and a love for books, despite living in the projects, you might hold onto the knowledge that you were raised by middle-class professionals, with middle-class “values”. It’s not just rich people who make a big deal out of class. My whole life I’ve worked with people from middle-class upbringings. It’s not hard to know how to distinguish someone whose lineage has been middle-class for multiple generations from someone like me, whose parents grew up poor and working-class. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/158 "2014-04-23T17:20:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I would argue that worrying about having to do things or learn things based on their likelihood of landing a job are a strong indicator of class. Upper classes don’t need to worry about the practicality of learning French or studying some esoteric liberal arts degree. They get to live off trust funds or inherit family businesses. At worst some family connection might be able to hook them up with a job with a prestigious company. Not that I particularly want to hate on the woman, but Chelsea Clinton seems like a very public manifestation of this. She’s clearly a brilliant woman, and I’m sure she’s hard working, but her schooling and career trajectory strikes me as something that is only really attainable by the children of upper class people with plenty of money and connections. I mean, Sidwell Friends school, followed by Stanford, Oxford and Columbia? Then a high-paying job at McKinsey followed by being on several boards of directors of non-profits and other organizations, and a stint on NBC? Let’s say that Clinton lost to Bush in 1992- would Chelsea Clinton, daughter of former Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton have had the same trajectory as Chelsea Clinton, daughter of former President Bill Clinton and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton? Probably not; she’d probably be something moderately important in Arkansas, or maybe work for a Dallas consulting firm or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/159 "2014-04-23T18:05:11Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > There was the little girl in “Aliens.” Her hair was in pretty bad shape, so I think we can assume low class. > > I’m unsure how “ability to survive an infestation of acid-blooded xenomorphs” acts as a class indicator, though. I can assure you, “the Company” high execs did not send any of \*their \*friends or family along to \*that \*colony. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330/160 "2014-04-23T18:46:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Not that I particularly want to hate on the woman, but Chelsea Clinton seems like a very public manifestation of this. > > She’s clearly a brilliant woman, and I’m sure she’s hard working, but her schooling and career trajectory strikes me as something that is only really attainable by the children of upper class people with plenty of money and connections. I mean, Sidwell Friends school, followed by Stanford, Oxford and Columbia? Then a high-paying job at McKinsey followed by being on several boards of directors of non-profits and other organizations, and a stint on NBC? > > Let’s say that Clinton lost to Bush in 1992- would Chelsea Clinton, daughter of former Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton have had the same trajectory as Chelsea Clinton, daughter of former President Bill Clinton and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton? Probably not; she’d probably be something moderately important in Arkansas, or maybe work for a Dallas consulting firm or something like that. Even Chelsea Clinton, daughter of two Ivy League educated attorneys would have had a better career path than Chelsea Clinton, daughter of guy who was in the middle of his law school class at the University of Arkansas. I think that the extent and distance you can get from family connections is a marker of class - in both the socio and economic senses of the world. On the other hand, she probably doesn’t have an uncle who can get her a great deal on a tv that fell off a truck… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-indicators-in-usa-society/686330.md?page=9)