# Class Warfare is ON, baby!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015 "2005-03-11T14:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/21 "2005-03-11T16:11:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You know what else, you dirty little fucker, you participated in the [GD thread on bankruptcy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306094) where it was mentioned over and over again how the poor were excluded from the changes. > > Disingenuous doesn’t even begin to describe you. Is there anything between your ears other than hatred for Bush? Ok, I didn’t realize that **Evil Captor** had participated in that thread. That fact moves this rant of his from uninformed to an outright lie. Respect for **EC** ------\> down the shithole. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/22 "2005-03-11T16:15:54Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Private Social Security accounts for a portion of contributions may not be ideal, but it beats the holy fuck out of the broken Ponzi scheme we have now. This typical of the Bush mentality; accept our proposal, or we will tar you as being against reform. There are dozens of ways to cure Social Security’s ills, but Republican don’t like them, so they prefer to believe there is only one solution. > [@](#): > > Don’t like the privatization proposal? Fine, propose something else that might work. Ok, I will. Raise the salary cap on Social Security contributions from $90,000 to $200,000; better yet, get rid of the cap altogether and fund universal health insurance. I said you wouldn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/23 "2005-03-11T17:21:29Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Others are addressing the alleged “factual” parts of your sick, people-hating socialist lies… You’re so cute when you talk like Joe McCarthy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/24 "2005-03-11T17:34:51Z")
Sure, the Left never calls the American voter stupid. Sure, the Left doesn’t hold the American voter in contempt. I see that now. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/25 "2005-03-11T17:35:34Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Others are addressing the alleged “factual” parts of your sick, people-hating socialist lies, so I’ll just handle the end As opposed to the outright love of humanity shown by the right. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/26 "2005-03-11T17:41:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, the Left never calls the American voter stupid. Sure, the Left doesn’t hold the American voter in contempt. I see that now. I find that people who feel the need to constantly insist that they’re smarter than their opponents probably aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/27 "2005-03-11T17:41:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, the Left never calls the American voter stupid. Sure, the Left doesn’t hold the American voter in contempt. I see that now. Would that be the [American voter that thinks personal accounts are a bad idea](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050309/ap_on_go_pr_wh/social_security_35)? To the contrary, the American voter has been moving up in my estimation ever since the election. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/28 "2005-03-11T17:49:06Z")
The OP asserts “class warfare” by the wealthy against “_the middle class_ and the poor.” The non-combatant status of the poor in one of the theatres of operation (to strain a metaphor) does not, in itself, invalidate the fundamental assertion. I’m not debating, here, I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/29 "2005-03-11T18:00:07Z")
The idea that there _isn’t_ class warfare going on is laughable. Just about every single thing Bush has done has been disadvantageous to the poor and middle class. The vitriolic “counter-arguments” posed by some here is surprising to me. I mean, defending the rights of the wealthy to be wealthier is your raison d’etre, isn’t it? I recommend that you simply embrace it. For a look at the issue from a roughly non-partisan (politically) and tax oriented point of view, I recommend David Cay Johnson’s book _Perfectly Legal_ (see [http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/lib056.html](http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/lib056.html) or [http://www.jimnewsom.com/PFW-perfectlylegal.html](http://www.jimnewsom.com/PFW-perfectlylegal.html)). The number of audits of poorer people has been going up, while those on the wealthy has been going down (see, e.g., [http://www.taxprophet.com/hot\_topic/0204.shtml](http://www.taxprophet.com/hot_topic/0204.shtml) or [http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0510-02.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0510-02.htm)). From the latter website: > [@](#): > > The poor continue to take advantage of the rest of us and the Internal Revenue Service and the Bush administration have at last decided to get tough on them. It’s because of the earned-income tax credit, which provides an offset for the Social Security taxes low-income workers have already paid, along with a credit based on their earnings that is intended to give them an incentive to work. No household with earned income above $34,692 is eligible for the credit. > > In 2001 the IRS began increasing its audits of the working poor (while at the same time reducing its audits of the wealthy and big companies). In 2002 one out every 64 people who claimed the credit was audited, whereas only one out of 120 persons with income more than $100,000 was audited. Fifty-five percent of all audits conducted in 2001 were audits of the working poor. In 2001 the average low-income tax credit paid by the government was $1,976 for households with children. A single poor person whose tax was zero was entitled to $364 as a tax credit. If the poor claim those credits when they are not entitled to them, they are robbing the rest of us. And, of course, it’s not just one or two who are cheating us. It’s thousands and so it only makes sense to crack down on them. To that end, the IRS brought to a close the month that began with April Fool’s day by announcing that it was going to tighten the rules that must be followed by the poor who claim the low-income tax credits. > > To help attack the problem and the poor (and while urging support for his massive tax reduction), President Bush asked Congress for $100 million and 650 new employees to identify potentially erroneous claims by the poor before any money is paid out. Under the new rules, the IRS is going to demand that folks claiming the credit produce ahead of time what is described as the most exhaustive proof of eligibility ever demanded of any class of taxpayers. If you don’t believe that there is a class war going on, you are either blindly stupid or profiting. If you want to keep supporting it, at least know what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/30 "2005-03-11T18:09:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The OP asserts “class warfare” by the wealthy against “_the middle class_ and the poor.” The non-combatant status of the poor in one of the theatres of operation (to strain a metaphor) does not, in itself, invalidate the fundamental assertion. Not only that, but just because the new bankruptcy laws do not impinge directly on the poor does not mean that they lack any of the hallmarks of class warfare. As even some of our conservative commentators have conceded in the thread on bankruptcy, the new bankruptcy provisions do little or nothing to remove some of the massive loopholes in bankruptcy laws for people of large means. Property exemptions, asset trusts and the like will continue to shield many wealthy people from the consequences of their malfeasance, while the poor are left to fend for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/31 "2005-03-11T18:20:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The OP asserts “class warfare” by the wealthy against “_the middle class_ and the poor.” The non-combatant status of the poor in one of the theatres of operation (to strain a metaphor) does not, in itself, invalidate the fundamental assertion. True, but the OP’s deliberate misrepresentation of the facts (on bankruptcy) calls into question every single one of his unsupported allegations. There is certainly room to question whether or not it’s bad law, or whether or not it is overly helpful to big corporations and doesn’t stop loopholes for the rich. He didn’t say that, he said it would make it “harder and more expensive for poor people to declare bankruptcy” which is a dirty lie, and he knows it’s a lie, and he lied because it served his purpose. You can’t support your side without making up inflammatory lies about the opposition, your argument is intellectually empty. It takes some mother fucking balls to go on a website dedicated to fighting ignorance and deliberately spread lies about something this important. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/32 "2005-03-11T18:45:25Z")
**Cheesesteak** , I think that I conditionally agree with you here. As the debate over the new bankruptcy law has raged, I have been asking myself why it has so many folks on my side of the aisle so pissed off. On the surface of things (given that (I am pretty sure) the FBI has reported something like 10% of bankruptcies as fraudulent, and that the folks below the median income are excluded) reform seems like a good idea. Yet you have folks claiming that this will hurt the poor. This seems contradictory. That said, I do think that the OP is correct in that this bankruptcy reform is a form of class warfare, though not for the reasons that the left seems to be sound byteing (yeah, that’s a word, when you get a degree in English you are granted the power to make up words. Don’t like it, too bad ). What we see, beyond the moral issue of it being inherently correct to pay what you owe, is a multi-billion dollar industry that has enough political clout to influence things even more their way. This just rubs some of us the wrong way. The other thing that is a huge problem is that nothing is being done to regulate the predatory marketing of this industry. They are giving credit to people that in no sane universe should have it, collecting what money they can and then writing the rest off when these folks are ruined. It would seem that at very least this industry should suffer some logical consequence of this (like eating it on bankruptcies), but they don’t. That, I think, gets to the heart of the class warfare issue. The loyal opposition seems to be really big on the personal responsibility angle when it comes to individual, corporeal citizens but remains strongly mute when the issue of corporate (or fictional persons) responsibility comes up. So, to sum up, I am pretty sure that the claim that this particular legislation will make things any worse for the poor is probably not true. However, the very existence of it is part of a big picture that, when viewed, shows how the wealthy and powerful continue to stack the deck in their favor. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/33 "2005-03-11T18:57:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There is certainly room to question whether or not it’s bad law, or whether or not it is overly helpful to big corporations and doesn’t stop loopholes for the rich. There is also room to argue that it constitutes class warfare, which is the only point that I wished to make. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > He didn’t say that, he said it would make it “harder and more expensive for poor people to declare bankruptcy” which is a dirty lie, and he knows it’s a lie, and he lied because it served his purpose. Well, upon closer inspection of the OP, I see that he did indeed use the words you are attributing to him. I won’t defend such a misrepresentation. Nor will I endorse your characterizations of his motives and purposes (or challenge them). Nor will I consider the instance to poison the well on the validity of the initial assertion. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/34 "2005-03-11T19:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Clothahump: > > Social Security is a giant Ponzi scheme that has been doomed to failure from day one. Anything that gets _any_ of my money out of it and back into my hands is a Very Good thing. Only a fool would want to keep pouring money into that black hole. Or a liberal. You’re right. Only a liberal would want to take care of our elders. Conservatives would be quite happy to hear of them eating cat food. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Clothahump: > > Again, totally disregarding the obvious, and that is that lawsuit abuse is so incredibly rampant that reforms like this have come about. If some jackass can be stupid enough to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, then spill it and sue McDonald’s, blaming them for her stupidity, and win, then it is long overdue. The Rand institue says that 4.4% of all punitive damage awards are from product liability and 2% from medical malpractice. The Wall Street Journal said that nearly half of all federal court cases filed between 1985 and 1991 were businesses suing each other. Tell me more, **Clothahump** , about “incredibly rampant” lawsuit abuse. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Clothahump: > > Totally disregarding the fact that the bankrptcy system has been raped and pillaged by people exploiting it out the wazoo, which is why it needs to be tightened up. I don’t know about you, but I’m more than a little tired of having to carry the burden of deadbeats who ran up bills with no intention to pay at all. Depending on which statistics one chooses to use something between one-quarter and one-half of all bankruptcies are predicated by high medical bills. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Fear Itself: > > Raise the salary cap on Social Security contributions from $90,000 to $200,000; better yet, get rid of the cap altogether and fund universal health insurance. BUT IT’S MY MONEY! YOU CAN’T TAKE MY MONEY AWAY FROM ME! IT’S MINE, ALL MINE! DAMN COMMUNIST! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/35 "2005-03-11T19:12:01Z")
Look who is leading the opposition! Loveable old Sen. Ted Kennedy (the guy who is always wailing about the poor), and Harry Byrd (ex Grand Kleagle of the KKK). Why are they in opposition? The Trail Lawyesr and ABA have both of these guys in their pockets…the lawyers do not want an end to the gravy train of umlimited malpractice lawsuits. Everybody seems to have the curious idea that the money paid out from these lawsuits grows on trees…the fact is, YOU and I PAY for each any every one of these. John Edward’s million-dollar lifestyle was paid for by medical malpractice lawsuits, and none of these guys will give up without a fight. President Bush’s courageous attempt to reform the bankruptcy laws is another example of the old democratic party defending the staus quo=which is allowing well-heeled people to walk away from multi-=million dolar debts, with their houses and cars. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/36 "2005-03-11T19:18:27Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > So, to sum up, I am pretty sure that the claim that this particular legislation will make things any worse for the poor is probably not true. However, the very existence of it is part of a big picture that, when viewed, shows how the wealthy and powerful continue to stack the deck in their favor. To the extent that the end result of the legislation pushes more people from the ranks of the middle class to the ranks of the poor, it creates a larger pool of people relying on the social safety net. Absent some mechanism for enabling the social safety net to handle the increased burden without collapsing into failure with catastrophic results for _everyone_ who relies on it, this legislation can be argued to be detrimental to the poor. Long way around to make it so, and nothing so direct as implied by the OP, but there you go. Very well-written post, BTW, **Binarydrone**. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/37 "2005-03-11T19:21:20Z")
Unless the poor are being exempted from the mandatory (and not free) credit counseling, it is indeed “harder and more expensive for poor people to declare bankruptcy.” ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/38 "2005-03-11T19:33:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Only a fool would want to keep pouring money into that black hole. Or a liberal. They’re pouring money into liberals now? Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/39 "2005-03-11T19:36:13Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Raise the salary cap on Social Security contributions from $90,000 to $200,000; better yet, get rid of the cap altogether and fund universal health insurance. I fail to see how changing nothing and throwing more money at it constitutes any sort of reform. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/40 "2005-03-11T19:46:38Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > I fail to see how changing nothing and throwing more money at it constitutes any sort of reform. So you are against Bush’s proposal to increase the federal debt by 2 trillion dollars to bridge the Social Security shortfall as we transition to privatization? How will it work if you don’t throw that money at the problem? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015.md?page=3)