# Class Warfare is ON, baby!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015 "2005-03-11T14:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/81 "2005-03-14T22:37:28Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > However, your class warfare thesis falls apart here. Conservative [non-wealthy] republicans are still supporting the platform as a whole. I don’t see how my thesis falls apart there. Conservative (non-wealthy) republicans are being duped wholesale. This is quite consistent with my thesis. The fact that they are participating in their own demise means they’re no different from the “values” Republicans who are doing the same. They’re just as stupid as the people who are willing to sacrifice their kids’ chances of getting into college to make sure two guys can’t married to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/82 "2005-03-14T22:39:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The new bankruptcy law specifically excludes families making less than the median income of their state. Specifically excludes families making less than the median income. Excludes families making less than the median income. > > Excludes. > Poor. > Families. > > Clear enough for you yet? Or are the facts going to get in the way of your rant? Good point. In this one of the four attacks I listed, only middle class families are affected. Not poor families. I said “poor” but I should have said “middle class” in this instance. I stand corrected. Of course, middle class families ARE still affected by this attack, and poor families as well as middle class families are affected by the other three. So this would constitute little more than a nitpick, albeit an accurate one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/83 "2005-03-14T22:41:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You know what else, you dirty little fucker, you participated in the GD thread on bankruptcy where it was mentioned over and over again how the poor were excluded from the changes. > > Disingenuous doesn’t even begin to describe you. Is there anything between your ears other than hatred for Bush? I’m having trouble understanding you. Perhaps if you got your face outta Dubya’s lap … ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/84 "2005-03-14T22:43:21Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > In essence, this explains your whole post. You think Americans are stupid. You think they are “gucks” to be manipulated by shit-stains like yourself. You think that if only they would receive wisdom from “worthies” such as yourself everything would be OK for them. Well guck you, gasshole. Look manhattan, I was very clear that the idiot gucks were the ones who voted Republican. Almost half of the American population voted Democratic, the majority of these people were voting WITH their economic interests, rather than against them, making them non-gucks. (Those few Republican voters who are wealthy are also not gucks, as they were voting for their own interests.) Repeat after me, manhattan: Republican /= American. Republican /= American. Republican /= American. You’ll get the hang of it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/85 "2005-03-14T22:44:29Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’d like to say that to somebody in person let me know when you’re coming to New York. I’ll take you by the Ten House on Liberty St. so you can discuss your remarks. Wave the bloody shirt much, manhattan? When come back, bring good argument instead fo cheap rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/86 "2005-03-14T22:45:54Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > In 2001 the IRS began increasing its audits of the working poor (while at the same time reducing its audits of the wealthy and big companies). In 2002 one out every 64 people who claimed the credit was audited, whereas only one out of 120 persons with income more than $100,000 was audited. It’s so consistent with all the rest of the class warfare. When will the American people awake from their media-induced snooze and realize they’re being put over a barrel and ridden hard? I honestly think a large part of the problem people have in admitting how badly the Bushies are rogering them is shame at having to admit how stupid they’ve been. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/87 "2005-03-14T22:48:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > it is overly helpful to big corporations and doesn’t stop loopholes for the rich. He didn’t say that, he said it would make it “harder and more expensive for poor people to declare bankruptcy” which is a dirty lie, and he knows it’s a lie, and he lied because it served his purpose. Nahh, I just said “poor” when I shoulda said “middle class.” You’re just disposed to believe it’s a lie because you’re a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/88 "2005-03-14T22:56:26Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > You know, If this bankruptcy bill actually closed the “keep your house and car loophole,” then I would call President Bush courageous, and think that this reform was needed. > > Unfortunately, it doesn’t. I gotta ask, why is it so important to take someone’s car when they declare bankruptcy? I can understanding foreclosing on a house as a way of handling the debts or of “encouraging” someone to sell so they can pay their debts. Nobody is owed the right to live in a house vs. an apartment. But if you take someone’s wheels, how are they gonna get to work? How are the gonna look for work. It’s true, a lot of people get along without a car … I have at times … but it really LIMITS you in your attempts to find work or get to work. Unless we’re talking a new Hummer or something. I can see forcing someone to take a less pimped-up ride, but depriving them of their wheels entirely is counterproductive in a country where in many places there aren’t many options for getting around other than a car. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/89 "2005-03-14T22:59:09Z")
Ten posts in a row, **E.C.**? Is that some sort of record for a single poster in a single thread? You know, it is possible to put it all in one big post. 🙂 On the subject of voting and class interests, i strongly recommend [this book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1110842173/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-3327827-3763228?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/90 "2005-03-14T23:02:43Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > If you’d like to say that to somebody in person let me know when you’re coming to New York. I’ll take you by the Ten House on Liberty St. so you can discuss your remarks. Well, I’m not making that long anticipated trip East this year, after all, so for us non-New Yorkers, can you explain what the Ten House is, and its significance with regard to the discussion here? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/91 "2005-03-14T23:02:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And of course I am much relieved to hear that there are exemptions for people who don’t have any money to be squeezed anyway. How very generous. How noble and Christian of them to abstain from taking what doesn’t exist. So it isn’t class war against the poor after all! Its class war against the middle! > > Though this time, they might just have pissed off the wrong bunch of people. I would really, really like to believe that people will understand the problem well enough to be pissed about it. But on The Daily Show, Paul Krugman said he didn’t think most people won’t make the connection between this law and the perpetual poverty some of the will fall into. They’ll just think it’s a personal failing of their own, while Visa and MasterCard go K’Ching! K’Ching! K’Ching! ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/92 "2005-03-14T23:10:17Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > C’mon. The bill obviously benefits one class of people – wealthy doctors, wealthy insurers – and harms another class of people, doctors’ patients, who, on the average, are much more likely to be poor or middle class than wealthy (because wealthy people comprise such a small percentage of the population). You must measure effect, not just declared intent, when considering laws of this nature. Oh, well, if you put it like that - why didn’t you say it was “obvious” to start with? Blimey. Those wealthy bastards, eh? Tch. Returning to the real world, and some actual attempt at analysis, could you explain to me again why limiting everyone’s (that’s those evil wealthy bastards too, remember) pain and suffering damages is discriminatory? As far as I can see, it practically favours the poor\* - I could live off my pain and suffering for a decade or more, but what’s a cool quarter mill to Bill Gates? What, pray tell, _is_ the “effect” that you are measuring, and how exactly are the poor disadvantaged by it? Because frankly, it’s pretty fucking far from being obvious, when _everybody is treated the same_. Do you realise that not all doctors are in fact evil and wealthy, and that insurance companies are, by and large, staffed by schmoes just like you? Do you somehow believe that pain and suffering damages are supposed to be some major mechanism by which Joe Sixpack can put one over The Man? Are they _supposed_ to be an agent of social change? > [@](#): > > You’re just disposed to believe it’s a lie because you’re a jerk. No, you’re just trying to make it sound less like a lie because you’re a weaselly git. But it’s fun watching that mythical bad guy become more and more ephemeral with your every post. Say - since the middle class by all accounts constitutes the vast majority of the American population, how do you explain that they keep voting for this supposed war on themselves? Oh, that’s right, they’re stupid, I remember. Of course, your theory (sorry, “thesis”) requires us to believe that pretty much everyone but you is stupid, whereas the alternative merely requires us to believe that you are. I’d give you Occam’s Razor, but I’m afraid you’d cut yourself. - Yes, I am being facetious here. Possibly like a motherfuck, who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/93 "2005-03-14T23:13:00Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The OP addresses some of the issues that have been building since LBJ’s “Great Society”. There are basically two classes of people in the United States…those who take more from society than they contribute and those for which the opposite is true. Some people are close to either side of the break even point, but for the purposes of my post, I will reference those who are at both ends of the spectrum…the “have nots” and the “haves”. > > Regarding point 1 of the OP…taxes. When discussing (flipping through liberal talking points…ah, here it is) “tax cuts for the wealthy”, it’s usually not mentioned that the top 10% of wage earners pay almost fifty percent of the taxes. It’s difficult to cut the taxes of those who do not pay them to begin with. And as far as auditing those on the Earned Income Credit…all one would have to do is underreport income to receive many more dollars. Since this is essentially free money from the government, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make sure it’s going to those who actually qualify. What free money? The government is just NOT taxing people who make so little that taxation is a burden on an already burdensome econonic situation. Seems rather level-headed and practical to me. I’m all for rooting out those who game the system, but perhaps the government would be better served by going after wealthy corporation and individuals who get away with paying no taxes at all – they just might have some income to tax. [/quote] Point 2: Social security will not remain solvent in its present form. Bush is just daring to suggest that people take more personal responsibility for providing for their retirement. [/quote] The only thing Bush seems to care a flip is private accounts, which will weaken if not gut the SS system, and which won’t solve the insolvency problems. Unless courage somehow =stupidity I find your phrasing inaccurate. > [@](#): > > Point 3: Bad debts cause a drag on profits, which has a negative effect on everything from available credit to employment rates. If businesses have to write off less, they become more solvent which benefits everyone. Last time I looked we were not operating within a socialist economy. If it’s so terrible, why is everyone so cool with Visa and MC offering it to everyone and (literally) his dog? > [@](#): > > Point 4: Tort reform. If you oppose it after educating yourself on the facts, then I can’t help you. My wife goes to an OB/GYN who told us her malpractice insurance was 150,000 dollars a year. Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that a birth costs over 5000 dollars? If you’d bothered to read the rest of the thread you’d have seen that this is a drop in the bucket … the majority of tort has to do with b2b lawsuits. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is that the haves are tiring of paying for the poor life choices of the have nots. As I have said in other posts, we cannot sustain a socialist level of services for a population that is only willing to pay a capitalist rate of taxes. The bottom line is that Pubbie talking points do not equal an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/94 "2005-03-14T23:14:27Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > A romantic notion that honors the value of hard work, no doubt. But the vast majority of CEO’s are not cartoon villians. By virtue of their business and hiring skills, millions of people keep their jobs and contribute the tax dollars that the left wants to spend. Sure, there are some bad apples…but capitalism is the backbone of our society and CEO’s and thier corporations are on the front lines. And how many times more than the average worker salary do CEOs get? The NASDAQ fell from 5,000 to 2,000. I’m sure you’ll show me that CEOs lost an equivalent amount of salary for this destruction of shareholder value, right? Or did you protest their big bonuses during the good years? I’m still waiting for you to justify the bonus for the CEO in **lavenderlemon** ’s company. The CEO is ultimately responsible, right? Or do you believe in the Bush model where the buck doesn’t stop anywhere near the top guy? There are some CEOs who give themselves big paycuts when times are bad. But they’re not the majority. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/95 "2005-03-14T23:25:33Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Well, I’m not making that long anticipated trip East this year, after all, so for us non-New Yorkers, can you explain what the Ten House is, and its significance with regard to the discussion here? > > Just curious. [The Ten House](http://www.projectrebirth.org/rebuild/keyOrgs/engine10.html). **Manhattan** was taking his usual position that the tragedy of 9/11 excuses any and all of the current administration’s needless scaremongering, misallocation of resources, or illegal foreign adventures, and that criticism of administration policies in those areas can be rebutted with an appeal to dead firefighters. The fact that he does this is pathetically exploitative of the very people he _claims_ to hold in such high regard. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/96 "2005-03-14T23:30:44Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Because frankly, it’s pretty fucking far from being obvious, when _everybody is treated the same_. But there are times when nominal equality of treatment does not produce fair results. “The law in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” Anatole France ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/97 "2005-03-14T23:34:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > [The Ten House](http://www.projectrebirth.org/rebuild/keyOrgs/engine10.html). > > **Manhattan** was taking his usual position that the tragedy of 9/11 excuses any and all of the current administration’s needless scaremongering, misallocation of resources, or illegal foreign adventures, and that criticism of administration policies in those areas can be rebutted with an appeal to dead firefighters. > > The fact that he does this is pathetically exploitative of the very people he _claims_ to hold in such high regard. Oh, a _fire_house. Now I get it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/98 "2005-03-14T23:40:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But there are times when nominal equality of treatment does not produce fair results. Right, but I’d like someone to explain how exactly this is one of those times. Can you explain why a quarter of a million is somehow worth less to a poor person than it is to a rich person? Getting a quarter of a million is in no way analogous to sleeping under a bridge, and I fail to see why one’s net worth determines how much one suffers. I’m willing to be convinced, but so far no-one has even tried, save to declare it “obvious”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/99 "2005-03-14T23:47:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > [The Ten House](http://www.projectrebirth.org/rebuild/keyOrgs/engine10.html). > > **Manhattan** was taking his usual position that the tragedy of 9/11 excuses any and all of the current administration’s needless scaremongering, misallocation of resources, or illegal foreign adventures, and that criticism of administration policies in those areas can be rebutted with an appeal to dead firefighters. I’m sure he is neglecting the fact that there might not have been any dead firefighters or policemen if Bush and friends paid attention to the evidence that something was afoot. But they didn’t have the flight and seat numbers of the terrorists, so nothing could be done. It was unavoidable, just like that tragic terrorist incident at LAX for the Millennium - oops - that one got stopped with some leadership by a president who gave a shit, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/100 "2005-03-15T00:05:28Z")
With all due, nah. Clinton doesn’t deserve any particular credit, the foiling of the millenium plot was pretty much luck. As or 9/11, a similar perverse luck factor was in play, as well as thunderous cupidity on our own behalf - I mean, the cockpit door wasn’t even locked, fer cryinoutloud! We’ve been having planes hijacked for years and years, and the friggin’ door ain’t locked? We got attacked by the Keystone Kops of terror, and they pulled it off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015.md?page=6)