# Class Warfare is ON, baby!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015 "2005-03-11T14:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/141 "2005-03-17T16:32:07Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Do you have a _single_ actual point to make? Or are you limited to this entirely nonsensical blitheringly stupid meta-debate? Are these rhetorical questions? Is the Pope Catholic? Are you _really_ going to limit your posts in this thread to “ah, you know I’m right really”? > > I’m deeply amused to discover that I’m conservative, however. I shall be sure to remember that, the next time I think I’m for gay marriage, drug legalisation and against internment, federal ID, the death penalty and any number of others from a laundry list of authoritarian wet dreams. Must be making it all up. Heaven forbid we should actually have a debate based on facts or (horror!) pragmatism - no, we’ve all got to be either on your side or t’other, isn’t that right? Sounds a lot like something your favourite President once said… I think I’ve made my points. I don’t think you’ve made yours. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/142 "2005-03-17T16:38:55Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > I just can’t see the “class warfare=Republican” thing. > > We have a conservative govt in Australia. They are doing likewise with making life easy for the rich. But guess what? The previous Labor administration did exactly the same thing! > > I just can’t see your average senior Democrat politician living payday to payday, is all. > > Aside from occasional well-intentioned but hopeless liberal-left governments that drag the economy to the shithouse (like Australia had in the 70s), the majority of Labo(u)r /Dem governments in recent years have been pulling the same stunts as their counterparts on the right - to the point of being indistinguishable from them. Modern liberal-left politics has seen a return to 1960s-style _social_ issues being their main platforms (opposing the war on Iraq, etc) - they are very quiet about economic issues, where they frequently are rubbing shoulders with the conservatives. > > Is there a class war going on? Well yes, if you like, although that term sounds very dated to me. I think it could be better termed as “the powerful fucking over the powerless, as they have done for millennia”. Yet, it’s so far beyond a Dem/Rep divide, it’s not funny. The fact that we have three pages of points of order on specific policies and links to arcane pieces of legislation in this thread (from both sides) is enough to make it clear that you can no longer point your finger and say “_there_ is the party for the wealthy”. > > They’re _all_ at it. As they always have been and always will be. I agree that often there is little to distinguish Demcratic centrists (or “Republican lite” as some call 'em) from Republicans on economic issues at times. However, I don’t think the Dems would ever go on an all-out offensive as the Bushistas have to gut social security, for instance. And Bush’s tax cut for the rich would never fly in the form he set it up in. A Dem president would at least provide equivalent breaks for the middle class. There ARE significant differences between the Dems and the Repubs as a whole on economic policies. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/143 "2005-03-17T16:46:17Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > See, this is the cognitive disconnect that I really don’t understand. While there are certainly idiotic things about corporate culture today, they’re a minor part of a greater whole, and there are idiotic aspects of any organization you can name. Business as a whole, however, is what drives the American economy and to treat businesses as entities that are inherently evil and should be tolerated only until a way is found to get rid of them altogether is madness. ( And for the life of me I can’t figure out what’s to replace them unless it’s some type system where the government or the “people” (same thing) control business-socialism or communism in other words. I don’t see this as any kind of improvement.) Honestly, reading what a lot of the liberals on these boards write, it seems that their idea of the perfect society is one where the only people in charge are lawyers and government bureaucrats. That sounds pretty much like hell on earth to me. Well, it’s an interesting and vivid fantasy, Weirddave, but problem belongs over in Cafe Society rather than in an actual debate. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/144 "2005-03-17T16:54:23Z")
Please, spare me the assertion that Democrats and Republicans are on the same side when it comes to economic issues. Consider the following: minimum wage - Democrats support increases that would provide a livable wage for the working poor. Republicans always raise the spectre of massive job loss (that somehow never actually happens whenever the minimum wage is raised). universal health care - Hillary Clinton versus the Newt Gingrich republican revolution Medicare - Republicans want it to “wither on the vine” Social Security - Democrats want to insure that all working Americans can enjoy a baseline of support when they retire, and that disabled workers or dependents might receive support as well. Republicans chant “Hey Hey Ho Ho Social Security has got to go.” Tax Cuts - George Bush targets tax cuts to favor the wealthy. Clinton proposed middle class tax cuts. Just recently, Republicans in Texas passed tax cuts in which only the wealthy see a reduction - everyone else will get an increase. The whole history of the unions - a historically very strong Democratic base of support. In the 80’s, republicans wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable so that they could save a little more from providing lunches to poor children. I could go on and on. If there was no distinction between Democrats and Republicans in terms of the Democrats consistently fighting for the greatest good for the greatest number of people (and generally supporting or defending those among us who have the least) I wouldn’t be a Democrat. I have no illusions that power and influence weigh heavily upon the decision making process for those on both sides, but this does not mean that the principles, platforms and works of the two parties are indistinguishable. The ironic thing is that our economy consistently performs better under Democrats than Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/145 "2005-03-17T17:19:52Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I think I’ve made my points. I don’t think you’ve made yours. You did? When? Was it when you said it was “obvious”? Was it when you said “c’mon” not once but twice? Was it when you referred to your bleatings as a “thesis”? Such mindboggling powers of reasoning did not go unnoticed, I assure you, but more stringent minds tend to like a little bit more on their toast. For what it’s worth I think you may be struggling with the very concept of having a “point”. If your point is that you, **Evil Captor** , think there is a class war on, then yes - this point has been admirably demonstrated. What you haven’t really done at all is demonstrate _why_ you think this, or more accurately why anyone else with analytical skills greater than those of a potato should think this too. I guess at this point I’m aware that you’re not going to, and I should really accept this. Incidentally, how’s your plan to rid the world of religion by masturbation going? Any converts yet? > [@villa](#): > > I’ll still maintain that tort ‘reform’ is likely to have a disproportionate effect on the poor (especially if done in ways such as capping all damages, as I believe Virginia did), but it is a stretch to call it class warfare. Fair enough. And I certainly agree with you that a cap on economic damages is just plain weird. Why cap something that can be objectively (or at least analytically) quantified? Makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/146 "2005-03-17T17:25:02Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Well, it’s an interesting and vivid fantasy, Weirddave, but problem belongs over in Cafe Society rather than in an actual debate. Well, you haven’t actually made any actual arguments all thread ( hint: pounding on your chest and screaming “It’s CLASS WARFARE, baby! Because I said so!” does not constitute an legitimate point ), I dunno why I should expect different now. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/147 "2005-03-17T18:05:38Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Please, spare me the assertion that Democrats and Republicans are on the same side when it comes to economic issues. Consider the following: OK, let’s consider. > [@](#): > > minimum wage - Democrats support increases that would provide a livable wage for the working poor. Republicans always raise the spectre of massive job loss (that somehow never actually happens whenever the minimum wage is raised). Hmmm. Tough one. Your theory that huge increases to the minimum wage have no economic impact is a hard one to refute…for people lacking even a basic understanding of economics 1-0-freakin-1. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason that massive job loss never occurred was because those in government with common sense kept the candyland Democrats from mandating a minimum wage of $20/hr? I’d say this is a good example of compromise government at work. > [@](#): > > universal health care - Hillary Clinton versus the Newt Gingrich republican revolution I have no love for Gingrich, but the parts of Hillary’s proposal that she did get through- HIPAA provisions mandating that coverage be made available in specific situations-have had a huge part in more than 10 million more people becoming uninsured since 1996. Great legacy that, and now you want more of it? > [@](#): > > Medicare - Republicans want it to “wither on the vine” I’d like a cite for this. A cite for a Republican proposal to allow Medicare to end without any replacement, leaving 30 million-plus old folks without insurance. Just one cite. > [@](#): > > Social Security - Democrats want to insure that all working Americans can enjoy a baseline of support when they retire, and that disabled workers or dependents might receive support as well. Republicans chant “Hey Hey Ho Ho Social Security has got to go.” A group of idiotic kids get together and chant something stupid, this is covered by TV news, and suddenly it’s an official Republican policy? Get real. Proposing that a broken Ponzi scheme headed for disaster in the future be fixed now is a much better way to " insure that all working Americans can enjoy a baseline of support when they retire, and that disabled workers or dependents might receive support as well" than throwing money blindly at SS or hoping it fixes itself on it’s own. What really chaps your thighs, I suspect, is that the Republicans have had the unmitigated gall to actually suggest that government be taken out of the process. Take power and money away from government? Expect people to care and think for themselves?? As you say, you’re a Democrat. Such ideas must be abhorrent to you. > [@](#): > > Tax Cuts - George Bush targets tax cuts to favor the wealthy. Clinton proposed middle class tax cuts. My taxes are lower now than they were during the Clinton years. Try again. If you keep repeating it enough times, it might magically become true! > [@](#): > > The whole history of the unions - a historically very strong Democratic base of support. There’s your cause of massive job loss, or hadn’t you noticed manufacturing jobs running overseas as fast as they can go? Unions were absolutely vital when they formed, now they are an anachronism that should be taken out behind the barn and shot before they suck the rest of the life out of the American economy. The fact that you trumpet them as a goods thing speaks volumes, about you, none of it good. > [@](#): > > In the 80’s, republicans wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable so that they could save a little more from providing lunches to poor children. This is [url=“[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040716.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040716.html)”]a complete and total misrepresentation of what happened,as I’m sure you know. [/quote] That myth is debunked by Cecil himself, and you couldn’t bother looking for the facts _on this website_ before trumpeting more of your sweet, sweet liberal porn? Jesus Christ! > [@](#): > > I could go on and on. I wish you would. Someday soon you’re bound to make a valid point. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/148 "2005-03-17T18:19:28Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason that massive job loss never occurred was because those in government with common sense kept the candyland Democrats from mandating a minimum wage of $20/hr? Cite? I’ve never heard any serious proposals for a $20/hr. minimum wage, even here locally in the S.F. Bay Area, where the cost of living is one of the highest in the nation. > [@Weirddave](#): > > I have no love for Gingrich, but the parts of Hillary’s proposal that she did get through- HIPAA provisions mandating that coverage be made available in specific situations-have had a huge part in more than 10 million more people becoming uninsured since 1996. Great legacy that, and now you want more of it? Again: cite? > [@Weirddave](#): > > My taxes are lower now than they were during the Clinton years. Try again. If you keep repeating it enough times, it might magically become true! Really? Mine are higher. And I was making more money than I am now, to boot. I guess that settles that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/149 "2005-03-17T19:06:16Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > OK, let’s consider. I consider you to be a dumbass bitch. > [@](#): > > Hmmm. Tough one. Your theory that huge increases to the minimum wage have no economic impact is a hard one to refute…for people lacking even a basic understanding of economics 1-0-freakin-1. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason that massive job loss never occurred was because those in government with common sense kept the candyland Democrats from mandating a minimum wage of $20/hr? I’d say this is a good example of compromise government at work. So your point is that minimum wage increases have not led to job loss? Thanks for your agreement. Here’s some info for people who aren’t dumbass bitches: [http://www.adaction.org/mwfactsheet2001.html](http://www.adaction.org/mwfactsheet2001.html) > [@](#): > > The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2001 would raise the minimum wage by $1.50 in three steps: 60 cents thirty days after the bill’s enactment; 50 cents on January 1, 2002; and 40 cents on January 1, 2003. This would benefit over 11 million American workers. $6.65 or $20.00? Dumbass bitch. > [@](#): > > I have no love for Gingrich, but the parts of Hillary’s proposal that she did get through- HIPAA provisions mandating that coverage be made available in specific situations-have had a huge part in more than 10 million more people becoming uninsured since 1996. Great legacy that, and now you want more of it? HIPAA caused 10 million to fall from the rolls of the insured? > [@](#): > > I’d like a cite for this. A cite for a Republican proposal to allow Medicare to end without any replacement, leaving 30 million-plus old folks without insurance. Just one cite. Here are cites for Gingrich’s wither on the vine quote as well as some bonus thoughts on Medicare from other Republicans. > [@](#): > > A group of idiotic kids get together and chant something stupid, this is covered by TV news, and suddenly it’s an official Republican policy? Get real. Proposing that a broken Ponzi scheme headed headed for disaster in the future […] Republicans have had the unmitigated gall to actually suggest that government be taken out of the process. Take power and money away from government? Expect people to care and think for themselves?? As you say, you’re a Democrat. Such ideas must be abhorrent to you. So simultaneously you are saying that Republican policy is not that “Social Security has got to go,” and that it is a ponzi scheme that the government should be taken out of? you are a confused and stupid dumbass bitch. > [@](#): > > This is [url=“[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040716.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040716.html)”]a complete and total misrepresentation of what happened,as I’m sure you know. That myth is debunked by Cecil himself, and you couldn’t bother looking for the facts _on this website_ before trumpeting more of your sweet, sweet liberal porn? Jesus Christ! [/quote] Really? Here’s the first paragraph of the piece you cite: > [@](#): > > No wonder. The story is so convoluted that it defied simple explanation at the time. Even today, the episode can be plausibly presented (depending on the political leanings of the presenter) as either a simple bureaucratic screwup or an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation’s kids. Stupid fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/150 "2005-03-17T19:28:56Z")
Here’s your “wither on the vine” cites. [http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-12/08russell.cfm](http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-12/08russell.cfm) [http://www.afscme.org/publications/public\_employee/1996/pend9625.htm](http://www.afscme.org/publications/public_employee/1996/pend9625.htm) Quote from above link: > [@](#): > > Dole on Medicare > “I was there, fighting the fight, one of 12, voting against Medicare in 1965 because we knew it wouldn’t work.” (Speech before the American Conservative Union in October 1995, in which Dole boasted that he was one of the few who voted against Medicare’s creation when he served in the House of Representatives. He was recorded on video tape.) > Gingrich on Medicare > “Now we don’t get rid of it in round one because we don’t think that that’s politically smart, and we don’t think that’s the right way to go through a transition. But we believe it’s going to wither on the vine.” (Speech before Blue Cross/Blue Shield conference, October 1995, in which the House Speaker disclosed his plan for Medicare. He was recorded on video tape.) [http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/108-1-309.html](http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/108-1-309.html) Other Republican thoughts on Medicare: > [@](#): > > Senator Santorum, the third ranking member of the Senate Republican Leadership, recently said, “I believe the standard benefit, the traditional Medicare program, has to be phased out.” (New York Times, May 21, 2003) > Tom Scully, the Bush Administration’s top Medicare official, called Medicare “an unbelievable disaster” and “a dumb system” during a recent town hall meeting in Pennsylvania. (Los Angeles Times, April 28, 2003) > Senator Bennett said this year, “Medicare is a disaster…We have to understand that Medicare, in order to work properly, is going to have to be overhauled from top to bottom as quickly as possible… [L]et’s create a whole new system.” (Congressional Record, March 19, 2003) > House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Thomas recently said, “Some of our friends on the other side of the aisle are saying that if this bill becomes law, it will be the end of Medicare as we know it. Our answer to that is, we certainly hope so. Why should seniors be the last group that pays retail prices for drugs? Old-fashioned Medicare is not very good.” (New York Times, June 26, 2003) > Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson has said that a prescription drug benefit is the “dessert” that the Administration is offering to get Congress to make “fundamental changes” to Medicare. (Washington Times, March 6, 2003) ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/151 "2005-03-17T19:52:03Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I consider you to be a dumbass bitch. Well, you’re starting you’re argument in typical style, dealing only with facts and leaving personal insults behind. That’s a sound debating tactic, hopefully this will prove fruitful. > [@](#): > > So your point is that minimum wage increases have not led to job loss? Thanks for your agreement. Nope. My point is that compromise between the two sides has created legislation that has been effective in this case. As I said initially. And you typically ignored. > [@](#): > > Here’s some info for people who aren’t dumbass bitches: > > [http://www.adaction.org/mwfactsheet2001.html](http://www.adaction.org/mwfactsheet2001.html) From that website: “ADA is America’s oldest independent liberal lobbying organization. In the spirit of the New Deal and ADA founders Eleanor Roosevelt, renowned economist John Kenneth Galbraith, and former Senator and Vice President Hubert Humphrey we lobby” Thank you for the cite from the oldest tax and spend lobbyists in America. Here, why don’t I show you a counter view from a non partisan source…on second thought, why bother? Your choice of cites proves that you’re not interested in thinking, just in mouthing the partisan line. > [@](#): > > $6.65 or $20.00? [Hyperbole](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=hyperbole). You might want to look it up. Learning new words is fun, AND it can impress your friends at the Jr. High! > [@](#): > > HIPAA caused 10 million to fall from the rolls of the insured? Yup. Because in typical short sighted fashion it confused access with affordability.HIPAA guaranteed millions of people access to health insurance. It also made it unaffordable for many of them, but hey, at least they had access to $1500/mo COBRAs, right? Maybe they should pass a law mandating lobotomies, paid for by the government, that’d be a sure way to increase the number of Democratic voters. > [@](#): > > Here are cites for Gingrich’s wither on the vine quote as well as some bonus thoughts on Medicare from other Republicans. When you say “here are some cites”, it’s customary to actually, you know, give cites. Do you have one that supplies what I asked for? > [@](#): > > So simultaneously you are saying that Republican policy is not that “Social Security has got to go,” and that it is a ponzi scheme that the government should be taken out of? Not at all. I’m saying that if no changes are made to SS, it WILL go, make no mistake about that. I think taking the Government out of it is a viable way to prevent that. I’ve tried to avoid the insults, it lowers one to, well, **your** level of invective without facts, but you really aren’t too bright are you? > [@](#): > > you are a confused and stupid dumbass bitch. You do realize that insults do not equal valid debating points, don’t you? Really? Here’s the first paragraph of the piece you cite: > [@](#): > > No wonder. The story is so convoluted that it defied simple explanation at the time. Even today, the episode can be plausibly presented ( **depending on the political leanings of the presenter** ) as either a simple bureaucratic screwup or an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation’s kids. I’ve bolded the relevant part. Interesting that you didn’t nip that out, you’re usually so good at cherry piking quotes out of context. Actually, I think I spoke too soon, because if you read on the article completely invalidated you point. Read carefully here: > [@](#): > > In mid-1981, only a few months after Reagan took office, Congress ( look at that, Congress, not Reagan at all ) cut $1 billion from child-nutrition funding and gave the USDA 90 days–the blink of an eye, for the federal bureaucracy–to come up with new standards that would enable school districts to economize, in theory without compromising nutrition. > > The USDA ( hey, whatta ya know, it wasn’t evil President Reagan again ) convened a panel of nutritionists and food service directors to ponder what to do. One option on the table–no one later would admit to putting it there–was to “accept catsup as a fruit/vegetable when used as an ingredient.” Some panel members seized on this as an opportunity to discuss whether to count ketchup even if used as a condiment. From what I can tell, the motive wasn’t so much penuriousness as trying to face facts about what kids would actually eat. USDA standards at the time required that a reimbursable lunch consist of five items: meat, milk, bread, and two servings of fruit or vegetables. Many kids refused to eat the veggies and the stuff wound up as “plate waste.” Would-be realists on the panel reasoned that if they could count ketchup as a vegetable they could meet federal standards without having to throw away so many lima beans, thereby saving money while having no impact on the kids. If you claim that the facts of the mater are anything remotely similar to, as you said, “In the 80’s, republicans wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable so that they could save a little more from providing lunches to poor children.”, than you are, to steal a page from your book on “debating” tactics, a lying, disingenuous fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/152 "2005-03-17T20:07:37Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Well, you’re starting you’re argument in typical style, dealing only with facts and leaving personal insults behind. That’s a sound debating tactic, hopefully this will prove fruitful. No, I’m employing both facts _and_ insults. It’s educational for you and fun for me. > [@](#): > > Nope. My point is that compromise between the two sides has created legislation that has been effective in this case. As I said initially. And you typically ignored. Compromise on what? Increases in the minimum wage. Increases which did not lead to notable job losses, which you agree with. Which is my point, your hyperbole notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > Here, why don’t I show you a counter view from a non partisan source…on second thought, why bother? Your choice of cites proves that you’re not interested in thinking, just in mouthing the partisan line. No, no. Go ahead. You’re halfway there already. > [@](#): > > Yup. Because in typical short sighted fashion it confused access with affordability.HIPAA guaranteed millions of people access to health insurance. It also made it unaffordable for many of them, but hey, at least they had access to $1500/mo COBRAs, right? Maybe they should pass a law mandating lobotomies, paid for by the government, that’d be a sure way to increase the number of Democratic voters. Opinions are like assholes. > [@](#): > > When you say “here are some cites”, it’s customary to actually, you know, give cites. Do you have one that supplies what I asked for? Look above you. No, on your monitor. > [@](#): > > If you claim that the facts of the mater are anything remotely similar to, as you said, “In the 80’s, republicans wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable so that they could save a little more from providing lunches to poor children.”, than you are, to steal a page from your book on “debating” tactics, a lying, disingenuous fuck. I think I basically was saying that it was “an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation’s kids,” which Cecil concludes could be plausibly presented. Hardly the debunking of liberal porn that you claimed it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/153 "2005-03-17T20:13:12Z")
Oh, you did give cites. Thank you, I appreciate that. Unfortunately, none of them are what I asked for, to wit: > [@me](#): > > A cite for a Republican proposal to allow Medicare to end without any replacement, leaving 30 million-plus old folks without insurance. None of the cites you gave fit. Medicare is expensive, inefficient and lots of the coverage sucks. Talking about replacing it with something designed to give better coverage more efficiently and be more cost effective, weather it’s done by letting the existing program “wither on the vine” or by replacing it entirely at one set time is completely different thing from getting rid of it all together and telling the nation’s elderly to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Of course, you could pick and chose select portions of speeches to give the impression that the elderly were going to be cut of in order to galvanize their support for your side, but that would be partisan and dishonest. You wouldn’t want to be partisan and dishonest, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/154 "2005-03-17T20:16:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I think I basically was saying that it was “an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation’s kids,” which Cecil concludes could be plausibly presented. Here’s an exercise for you: See if you can fit another qualifier in that sentence. That outta make it even more meaningless, and keep you from admitting that you’re wrong for another few posts. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/155 "2005-03-17T20:17:33Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > The ironic thing is that our economy consistently performs better under Democrats than Republicans. It’s not irony, it’s cause and effect. Dems try to help the middle class, this generally involves helping the whole economy because the middle class is a huge demographic that needs the whole economy to be working well in order to do well. The rich are essentially a small special interest group – the economy overall can be doing badly, but they might do well. I’m sure the wealthy in general prefer a strong U.S. economy to a weak one, but it’s not necessary for them to do well, and in fact laws that benefit them, like the Bush tax cut, can harm the economy overall, as most economists believe it will. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/156 "2005-03-18T00:51:59Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Here’s an exercise for you: See if you can fit another qualifier in that sentence. That outta make it even more meaningless, and keep you from admitting that you’re wrong for another few posts. What qualifiers? I simply paraphrased the sentence from your own cite. What a fucking moron. As for the Gingrich quote - you wanted a cite for my assertion, I provided it. Just because you stretched your request for a cite into something else, that is neither my problem, nor does it refute the basic point that Democrats fight for programs that benefit the most people, and which generally benefit the less wealthy among us. See for example, the Senate vote today, which broke down among near party lines, with seven Republicans voting with the Democrats to prevent major cuts to Medicare. See the other Senate vote, in which a proposal to allow the government to negotiate with big pharmaceutical companies to obtain more reasonable drug costs for Medicare recipients. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/157 "2005-03-18T01:10:29Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > No, I’m employing both facts _and_ insults. It’s educational for you and fun for me. SIG LINE! 🆒🆒🆒 With your permission, **Hentor**? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/158 "2005-03-18T02:34:52Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > SIG LINE! > 🆒🆒🆒 > > With your permission, **Hentor**? Absolutely! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015/159 "2005-03-18T02:46:53Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > SIG LINE! > 🆒🆒🆒 > > With your permission, **Hentor**? Look, you finally made a contrbution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/class-warfare-is-on-baby/294015.md?page=7)