# Classic Borg vs. Original Death Star **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783 "2018-06-26T17:37:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/21 "2018-06-26T19:42:19Z")
Could the Death Star even aim the planet-killer at something as small as a Borg Cube? I’d think that weapon would be more or less useless as a ship-to-ship offense. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/22 "2018-06-26T19:43:56Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Borg, easily. They have personal shields. The only person who could resist would be Vader. Maybe. I’d love to see him open a can of force-assisted whoop ass on the Borg, though. That would be something to see. But he’s only one person. > > The Borg complete their assimilation of the Death Star by lunchtime, unless the DS can get a shot off at the cube. Or Vader can control the top Borg giving the orders, adding the entire Borg collective to the Empire’s arsenal. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/23 "2018-06-26T19:45:10Z")
Wouldn’t it be trivial for the Borg Cube to move out of the line of fire of the Death Star’s main weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/24 "2018-06-26T19:47:19Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’m not sure it is a case of the famous Borg “Adapting” skills. I don’t think there is any level of adaptation that can beat the Super Laser. The second cube will go up just as quickly. It’s an entirely different kind of weapon, altogether. I think it would cut through anything in either universe, save for the hull of the Planet Killer. Space amoebas, Vger, whale probes - fuggeddabouddit. Nothing left but expanding plasma. > > Now if someone would transport a Genesis Device inside a Borg cube… There are scores, hundreds, of Borg Cubes, not to mention smaller Borg ships that can outmaneuver a big gun like that. Plus that cannon can only fire in one direction at a time. One of those ships will get close enough to put some drones on board, at which point it’s pretty much over. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/25 "2018-06-26T19:49:11Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Or Vader can control the top Borg giving the orders, adding the entire Borg collective to the Empire’s arsenal. There is no such entity. Even the Borg Queen is more of a gestalt figure, a representation of the will of the entire collective. Vader would have to force-control millions of minds all thinking the same thoughts. His head would probably explode. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/26 "2018-06-26T19:52:50Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Could the Death Star even aim the planet-killer at something as small as a Borg Cube? I’d think that weapon would be more or less useless as a ship-to-ship offense. To be fair, the Death Star in Return of the Jedi does a pretty good job of blowing up Rebel ships. Too bad for them they launched their attack on the cannon-facing side. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/27 "2018-06-26T20:17:33Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > There is no such entity. Even the Borg Queen is more of a gestalt figure, a representation of the will of the entire collective. Vader would have to force-control millions of minds all thinking the same thoughts. His head would probably explode. Ah, good point. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/28 "2018-06-26T20:30:34Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > To be fair, the Death Star in Return of the Jedi does a pretty good job of blowing up Rebel ships. I remember reading something (though it may well have been fan-wanking) that the ability to target ships wasn’t a feature of the original Death Star, though it was clearly a feature of the second one. _Rogue One_ shows that the original was able to target its primary weapon pretty precisely – it scored a direct hit on the holy city on Jedha, and a near-hit on the archive facility on Scarif. OTOH, those targets were less elusive than a starship. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/29 "2018-06-26T20:46:39Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Could the Death Star even aim the planet-killer at something as small as a Borg Cube? I’d think that weapon would be more or less useless as a ship-to-ship offense. They used it during the battle of Endor to target the Mon Calamari cruisers, they couldn’t repel firepower of that magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/30 "2018-06-26T21:01:12Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > They used it during the battle of Endor to target the Mon Calamari cruisers, they couldn’t repel firepower of that magnitude. It’s a TRAP! ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/31 "2018-06-26T21:20:50Z")
Gee, people, don’t you remember the[Battle of Wolf 359](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Wolf_359)? The Borg had already done target practice on some planetary outposts, and the Federation answered with a battle force of 40 ships. A single Borg cube destroyed 39 of them. On top of its firepower, a Borg cube can travel at warp 10+ for an extended period, while Death Stars can’t even get out of their own way, so the Borg can literally fly rings around a Death Star while the Empire is still trying to program the fire command. In other words, the Borg would clean the Death Star’s clock,\* unless\* Vader used the Force to tell the Borg to go to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/32 "2018-06-26T22:38:41Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Not sure how you conclude this — in Star Wars, it’s mentioned that the Death Star has shields but the X-wings fly right through them. Besides that, it’s established that the Borg have weapons specifically designed to drain defensive shields. It’s never mentioned in Star Wars that the Death Star has shields. In the briefing before the attack, it’s explained that the port they’re trying to hit is “ray shielded,” which is why they have to use torpedoes. Also, one of the pilots approaching the Death Star mentions “bouncing through [a] magnetic field,” but there’s no real indication that he’s referring to some sort of a defensive screen. The Empire definitely has shields that can block physical objects, though – the second Death Star is shielded, and that explicitly prevents the fighters from making their attack run until the troops on the ground can blow up the shield generator. _Rogue One_ also featured hard shields around Scariff, including a scene of a couple Xwings impacting on the closed shield and the wreckage skittering across the shield’s surface. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/33 "2018-06-26T22:39:43Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Gee, people, don’t you remember the[Battle of Wolf 359](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Wolf_359)? The Borg had already done target practice on some planetary outposts, and the Federation answered with a battle force of 40 ships. A single Borg cube destroyed 39 of them. So, what you’re saying is that a single Borg cube couldn’t go 40 for 40 against a bunch of namby-pamby scientists and diplomats? That’s not a good argument for their military superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/34 "2018-06-26T22:52:32Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > The only way the Death Star beats the Borg is if they manage to destroy the Cube with its main cannon before the Borg can send over a force sufficient to assimilate the station. In “Q Who?”, the Borg beam over a single scout to assess the ship’s potential for assimilation. The Enterprise crew kill the drone (though are powerless to hurt its replacement) but, being reasonable, peace-loving people, don’t then try to attack the Cube. The Empire would have no such compunctions. It’s possible that the first few Borg scouts could be killed and the Cube destroyed before the Borg could adapt and/or send over more drones. Thus the Death Star lives to fight another day. > > Until, of course, it encounters another Cube. I figure it goes kind of like that. First, I don’t think the gigantic weapon would actually hit the Borg cube. If the Borg realize what that is, the ship would move. The cube isn’t exactly the most nimble of ships, but that is a literal planet-killing weapon. > [@](#): > > They used it during the battle of Endor to target the Mon Calamari cruisers, they couldn’t repel firepower of that magnitude. Or maybe I’m wrong. The Star Wars guys don’t know how Borg adaptation works. When the Enterprise crew fought the Borg the first time, they all had phasers set to the “same frequency”. After a battle, they started switching frequencies on both personal and ship weapons. I figure, for logistical reasons, all those TIE fighters probably have the same weapon systems, so why wouldn’t they all share frequencies? So the Borg cube takes damage, then starts fending it off while repairing itself. The death star does have a lot of turbolasers, and they might not all have the same frequencies. So I figure the Borg cube would take a lot of damage. It might even get blown up! Scenario 2 is a Borg victory. The Borg would get drones through the shields (either by blasting them until they’re too weak to stop the transporters, or beaming drones onto smaller ships and get back in the Death Star). At that point they start assimilating the Death Star. It literally won’t matter if the Borg cube gets blown up at this point. We’ve seen that a very small number of drones can (slowly) take over a large ship. Stormtroopers all use the same model of blaster. (There’s speculation that the blasters are so terrible that stormtroopers can’t shoot straight.) They’re energy weapons, so after a few drones get killed, the drones become nearly invincible. I suspect the Death Star might have some internal security weapons (which don’t have to be identical with each other), troops with at least one other type of weapon (there’s a lot of uniformed people on the Death Star who aren’t stormtroopers), etc, which simply means it takes the Borg longer to take over the ship. I’m ignoring the possibility of assimilating crew. The original Borg didn’t do that, that came about in the movie. Of course, they didn’t let that go 🙂 > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’m not sure it is a case of the famous Borg “Adapting” skills. I don’t think there is any level of adaptation that can beat the Super Laser. The second cube will go up just as quickly. That’s not how it works… in the novels. In one novel a Borg cube attacked a gigantic ship that had an anti-proton beam weapon. Kablooie! The next time, the Enterprise fought alongside the giant ship. The Enterprise had to unload weapons continually on the Cube until the anti-proton beam blew it up. Then the next time three Borg cubes showed up… Species 8472 were unstoppable, apparently because their energy weapons were biological energy weapons. Well I guess that means that, in addition to dishing out a tremendous amount of damage, that each blast is different (at least each ship’s blast is different). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/35 "2018-06-26T23:15:09Z")
The first appearances of the Borg were terrifying. Scant years later? A joke. So with regard to the OP’s question, I’m guessing that _it’s already been answered_: at some point in between Picard’s first encounter with them and Janeway’s last one, the Borg assimilated stormtroopers and reacted accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/36 "2018-06-26T23:25:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’m not sure it is a case of the famous Borg “Adapting” skills. I don’t think there is any level of adaptation that can beat the Super Laser. … How about moving your ship a few hundred meters to the left or right? The laser is meant to hit a planet not a ship that can see a giant laser slowly powering up to shoot at them. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/37 "2018-06-26T23:51:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The first appearances of the Borg were terrifying. Scant years later? A joke. > > So with regard to the OP’s question, I’m guessing that _it’s already been answered_: at some point in between Picard’s first encounter with them and Janeway’s last one, the Borg assimilated stormtroopers and reacted accordingly. That’s why the OP specified classic Borg and original death star, to try to keep it in a specific frame of reference and not allow the Borg any advantage of perseverance over time. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/38 "2018-06-26T23:51:18Z")
If you really want to get technical, it’s established in the Star Trek universe that laser-based weapons are little more than a joke. (“The Outrageous Okana,” where Riker mentions that laser weapons can’t even penetrate the Enterprise’s navigation deflectors.) Whatever a phaser exactly is, it’s altogether different from a laser. So we can’t even say with certainty that most of the Empire’s firepower would scratch a Borg ship. > [@Miller](#): > > So, what you’re saying is that a single Borg cube couldn’t go 40 for 40 against a bunch of namby-pamby scientists and diplomats? > > That’s not a good argument for their military superiority. Assuming you’re being tongue-in-cheek, but still: The 40th ship (we don’t know which one it was) may have survived destruction but it didn’t even slow down the Borg. The Enterprise only disabled the Cube because Picard/Locutus was able to turn its own programming against it. And that only happened because, by then, the Federation understood the Borg well enough to work out an effective strategy. The Empire’s tactics generally assume their enemies will attempt massive head-on assaults that they then answer with overwhelming firepower. They repeatedly show themselves to be vulnerable to small-scale attack, infiltration and sabotage. Teleportation is beyond Imperial or Rebel technology. Once the Borg start assimilating people and the Death Star crew realizes what’s happening to them, it may already be too late to respond. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/39 "2018-06-27T00:00:08Z")
Then again, Star Wars turbolasers also aren’t just lasers. And the Death Star superweapon _certainly_ isn’t “just a laser”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/40 "2018-06-27T00:47:09Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > If you really want to get technical, it’s established in the Star Trek universe that laser-based weapons are little more than a joke. (“The Outrageous Okana,” where Riker mentions that laser weapons can’t even penetrate the Enterprise’s navigation deflectors.) Whatever a phaser exactly is, it’s altogether different from a laser. So we can’t even say with certainty that most of the Empire’s firepower would scratch a Borg ship. If you really want to get technical, they don’t use lasers in Star Wars. They use blasters, which fire a bolt of explosive plasma. > [@](#): > > Assuming you’re being tongue-in-cheek, but still: The 40th ship (we don’t know which one it was) may have survived destruction but it didn’t even slow down the Borg. The Enterprise only disabled the Cube because Picard/Locutus was able to turn its own programming against it. And that only happened because, by then, the Federation understood the Borg well enough to work out an effective strategy. I mostly just wanted to slag off the Federation, but taking it more seriously, the fact that a Borg cube destroyed 40 Federation ships without breaking a sweat doesn’t really tell us anything about how well it would do against a Death Star, which itself I would expect to have little trouble taking apart forty Federation starships. > [@](#): > > The Empire’s tactics generally assume their enemies will attempt massive head-on assaults that they then answer with overwhelming firepower. They repeatedly show themselves to be vulnerable to small-scale attack, infiltration and sabotage. Teleportation is beyond Imperial or Rebel technology. Once the Borg start assimilating people and the Death Star crew realizes what’s happening to them, it may already be too late to respond. The same vulnerabilities that routinely defeat the Borg, yes? Also, the OP specifically noted that this was the Borg cube from their original appearance in the TNG episode, “Q Who.” Correct me if I’m wrong, here, but wasn’t the assimilation thing added in their later appearances? In their first episode, they beam aboard the Enterprise, raid its computer systems, and then start dismantling the Enterprise, but there’s no mention of there being any sort of biological “assimilation” taking place. Actually, let’s look at that first episode. [Here’s a synopsis.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Who) Since it’s that specific cube, then we can assume they use those specific tactics when they encounter the Death Star for the first time. So: 1. Beam a single drone on board to interface with the enemy’s computer systems. Repeat as necessary until all data is transferred. 2. Demand surrender. Prevent ship movement via tractor beam and disable shields. Begin cutting apart the ship. 3. After taking damage, _completely shut down all functions until repairs are completed._ 4. Once ship is repaired, chase down the people who damaged you and kill them. So, presumably they could do 1. Unlike Picard, Grand Moff Tarkin is not likely to wait until they get to step 2 before he starts firing. And he’s not likely to stop just because the ship appears disabled. So, I don’t think the fight lasts for more than a couple minutes, and it ends with the Borg cube as space dust. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783.md?page=3)