# Classic Borg vs. Original Death Star **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783 "2018-06-26T17:37:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LoneRhino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lonerhino/32/1311_2.png) [@LoneRhino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LoneRhino)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/41 "2018-06-27T01:03:05Z")
Years ago I read a pretty good fanfic story about this. IIRC, The started to assimilate the death star when Vader had a force burst? revelation? and beat them back. The Borg had assimilated Tarkin and left the badly damaged death star and started to assimilate other places. I don’t usually read much fanfic but this was pretty good. Unfortunately there were 2 or 3 chapters written and I couldn’t find anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/42 "2018-06-27T01:57:17Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > To be fair, the Death Star in Return of the Jedi does a pretty good job of blowing up Rebel ships. Different design. The Death Star II superlaser was both designed to target smaller things than planets, and capable of firing relatively low powered shots more quickly. The first Death Star couldn’t target ships very accurately, and could only fire something like once or twice a day. That’s why it had to move around the gas giant Yavin to give itself a clear shot at the Rebel base on its moon, instead of just blowing up the gas giant then the moon in succession (a supposed plot hole people sometimes complain about). ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/43 "2018-06-27T02:05:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also, the OP specifically noted that this was the Borg cube from their original appearance in the TNG episode, “Q Who.” The OP did not specifically note that. He only stated “classic” Borg. To most fans, that indicates the Borg as they were developed on the original Next Generation TV series, before First Contact and Voyager altered and expanded their capabilities. The OP does specifically bring up the idea of the Borg materializing onto the Death Star with the intention of assimilating its crew, so plainly he was taking into account more than the events of “Q Who?”. As for the rest of your scenario, assuming the Borg used the same tactics against the Death Star as it did the Enterprise, then there is at least the possibility the Death Star could destroy the Cube before its crew was assimilated (as I noted in [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21047105&postcount=17)). If the encounter is taking place in the Star Wars universe, Tarkin notes it in his log and moves on with his day. If we’re in the Trek universe, the next Borg Cube that encounters the Death Star will know what it’s up against, and things will likely be very different. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/44 "2018-06-27T02:18:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s why it had to move around the gas giant Yavin to give itself a clear shot at the Rebel base on its moon, instead of just blowing up the gas giant then the moon in succession (a supposed plot hole people sometimes complain about). It is a plot hole. Blow the shit out of Yavin and who cares what happens to the moon. It and everything on it is toast. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/45 "2018-06-27T02:37:52Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > The OP did not specifically note that. He only stated “classic” Borg. To most fans, that indicates the Borg as they were developed on the original Next Generation TV series, before First Contact and Voyager altered and expanded their capabilities. The OP does specifically bring up the idea of the Borg materializing onto the Death Star with the intention of assimilating its crew, so plainly he was taking into account more than the events of “Q Who?”. Yeah, that was an overreach on my part. Sorry. > [@](#): > > As for the rest of your scenario, assuming the Borg used the same tactics against the Death Star as it did the Enterprise, then there is at least the possibility the Death Star could destroy the Cube before its crew was assimilated (as I noted in [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21047105&postcount=17)). If the encounter is taking place in the Star Wars universe, Tarkin notes it in his log and moves on with his day. If we’re in the Trek universe, the next Borg Cube that encounters the Death Star will know what it’s up against, and things will likely be very different. Sure, but that’s not “Borg Cube v. Death Star” anymore, that’s either “Entire Galactic Empire v. One Borg Cube,” or “Entire Borg Collective v. One Death Star,” and either of those are entirely different conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/46 "2018-06-27T02:40:05Z")
The power to assimilate a small moon… scratch that, a space station… is insignificant next to the power of The Force. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/47 "2018-06-27T02:48:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It is a plot hole. Blow the shit out of Yavin and who cares what happens to the moon. It and everything on it is toast. Possibly the Death Star along with it. Blowing up a gas giant is a much bigger boom than a rocky planet. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/48 "2018-06-27T02:49:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It is a plot hole. Blow the shit out of Yavin and who cares what happens to the moon. It and everything on it is toast. 1. It’s entirely possible the Death Star simply lacks the firepower to blow up a giant gas planet like Yavin itself. ([Earth and Jupiter to scale.](https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/sim/jupiter-earth-browse.jpg)) 2. If the Death Star _could_ blow up Yavin itself, then Yavin IV would be toast…but so very likely would be the Death Star itself. ---
**Author:** ![Knight\_Of\_Few\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@Knight\_Of\_Few\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knight_Of_Few_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/49 "2018-06-27T04:56:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The first appearances of the Borg were terrifying. Scant years later? A joke. > > So with regard to the OP’s question, I’m guessing that _it’s already been answered_: at some point in between Picard’s first encounter with them and Janeway’s last one, the Borg assimilated stormtroopers and reacted accordingly. “We are the Borg. Your unique targeting abilities will be added to our own.” ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/50 "2018-06-27T08:10:14Z")
Just hope the Borg didn’t swing by Naboo on their way to the Death Star. “Weesa the Borg, yousa be assimilated.” “Resistance isa futile, okyday” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/51 "2018-06-27T14:04:19Z")
In the _Darths and Droids_ universe, what they were using against the Mon Calimari cruisers was just the targeting beam. The Empire personnel were very frustrated that none of the ships lasted long enough to turn the main beam on them. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/52 "2018-06-27T17:31:11Z")
> [@yendis](#): > > Just hope the Borg didn’t swing by Naboo on their way to the Death Star. > > “Weesa the Borg, yousa be assimilated.” > > “Resistance isa futile, okyday” The horror…the horror… ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nauplius/32/51_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/53 "2018-06-27T18:54:12Z")
Vader just has to Jedi mind trick the first drone that shows up. That will be uploaded to the entire collective and Vader will have an entire army of Borg at his disposal. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/54 "2018-06-27T19:46:39Z")
The Borg don’t have minds in the conventional sense. He wouldn’t be mind-tricking one Borg; he’d be mind-tricking the entire collective. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/55 "2018-06-27T22:39:35Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > The Borg don’t have minds in the conventional sense. He wouldn’t be mind-tricking one Borg; he’d be mind-tricking the entire collective. I’m no expert, but I don’t think this is quite right. It’s not as if their minds are wiped clean and occupied entirely by the collective. I think it’s more like their minds are under a strong influence from the collective, and that it might be possible for that influence to be overcome by a stronger influence. On the other hand, I don’t think that jedi mind control is all that strong, it had no influence at all on Jabba the Hutt. Didn’t Obi-Wan say early on that it only worked on “weak” minds? ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/56 "2018-06-28T00:19:14Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > The Borg don’t have minds in the conventional sense. He wouldn’t be mind-tricking one Borg; he’d be mind-tricking the entire collective. Frightening if they could pull that off, but I don’t think he could. I believe he has to perceive the target, which isn’t the drone, but the entire Collective. But perhaps he could order a drone or two around by essentially circumventing their programming. I just don’t see that working, if the Borg send more than a few drones. (Also, what effect would a lightsaber have on a drone? It’s a powerful attack, and I couldn’t tell you if it naturally modulates frequencies. Probably not. Apparently [now non-canon] Sith lightsabers are red because they use an artificial crystal, suggesting that frequency is fixed for that particular lightsaber.) > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I’m no expert, but I don’t think this is quite right. It’s not as if their minds are wiped clean and occupied entirely by the collective. I think it’s more like their minds are under a strong influence from the collective, and that it might be possible for that influence to be overcome by a stronger influence. On the other hand, I don’t think that jedi mind control is all that strong, it had no influence at all on Jabba the Hutt. Didn’t Obi-Wan say early on that it only worked on “weak” minds? Some Borg had somewhat independent personalities (Locutus, Seven of Nine) even when connected to the Borg, though most seemed to be “mindless” drones. But “random” Borg like Hugh seem to develop their personalities after being disconnected from the Collective. I think it is possible to manipulate them, it depends on whether a drone has a “weak mind” or if the Collective gives it the equivalent of a “strong mind”. But this manipulation is small scale stuff. “These are not the droids you are looking for,” not “disobey the Collective and stop assimilating the Death Star”. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/57 "2018-06-28T02:05:08Z")
I’ll go with the traditional, “It depends on what the writers want”, argument and say that the principal reason for such an encounter would be to create an extra-special evil enemy so the Borg will win. If the Empire wins, so far as they would likely be concerned, the Borg would just be roadkill. Maybe they’d send some samples of their tech back to be analyzed by the Empire’s scientists, but probably nothing would come out of that for a few decades. No big change on any time scale that is appropriately cinematic. On the other hand, if the Borg win, then **Borg with Death Star**. They’d integrate the core technology into the Cube in the course of a few days and have the speed advantages of the Cube with the firing power of the Death Star. I would further submit that the only thing more terrifying than that is if Darth Vader’s Jedi powers make him immune to the Borg, so they form an alliance with him. Then you have **Darth with the Borg on the Death Cube**. Add some sharks with lasers on their heads and you’re pretty well in Villainy’s Mecca by that point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/58 "2018-06-28T02:16:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No big change on any time scale that is appropriately cinematic. > > On the other hand, if the Borg win, then **Borg with Death Star**. They’d integrate the core technology into the Cube in the course of a few days and have the speed advantages of the Cube with the firing power of the Death Star. > > I would further submit that the only thing more terrifying than that is if Darth Vader’s Jedi powers make him immune to the Borg, so they form an alliance with him. > > Then you have **Darth with the Borg on the Death Cube**. Add some sharks with lasers on their heads and you’re pretty well in Villainy’s Mecca by that point. You’re so close. You submit that, given a Borg-With-Death-Star scenario, it gets more _terrifying_ if we add in an alliance with Darth Vader. But what’s more _awesome,_ if we’re going for stuff that’s appropriately cinematic, is Darth Vader instead allying himself with the side that’s set to go on a big damn Blow-Up-The-Death-Star run. [Kenobi] “He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.” [/Kenobi] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/59 "2018-06-28T10:39:51Z")
We know from pure observation that Star Wars guns aren’t actually lasers. From other sources, we know they fire plasma. Now, from _ST:First Contact_, it seems the Borg shields can’t adapt to physical weaponry. So the question becomes - does the blaster plasma count as an energy weapon or a physical one? Yes, I’m aware in RW physics that’s a dumb distinction to make, but in treknobabble terms, where does plasma lie? Clearly the cubes are able to stop photon torpedoes (but those are gamma ray bursters, not hot plasma), but the shielded drones appear unable to stop physical attacks. Also, beyond stormtoopers - can the drones assimilate droids? Because there seem to be a few of those around the Death Star… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783/60 "2018-06-28T13:57:00Z")
On the Jedi Mind Trick: I think that, if the drone is in contact with the Collective at the time, it’d be like trying to Mind Trick the entire Collective, which would be hopeless. But, if the Empire’s forces can block that connection for even a moment, then everything changes: Now it’s just one drone, the epitome of a weak mind, and so the Mind Trick works flawlessly. And then, when the drone re-establishes contact with the Collective, it gets uploaded, like the Federation was planning on doing with the virus they were going to give to Hugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-borg-vs-original-death-star/816783.md?page=4)