# Classic: The Whole 9 Yards... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 8, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411 "2005-04-08T16:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/61 "2005-04-18T16:55:12Z")
Besides, **kunilou** , even if the answer to one of your questions happened to be “Nine yards”, what use would it be without some actual evidence connecting it to the expression? We’ve already got lots of guesses without documented connections, what would the good be of coming up with more? ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/62 "2005-04-18T17:12:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like **Xgemina** said- in ammo cans. Which Xgemina said hold around 100 rounds. > > Since these are so handy, you have likely seen a few in your lifetime. They are green, about the size of a large phone book, and have a folding metal handle on top. > The standard one are upright- the smallest dimesion is width, they are about as tall as deet- like 18" or so. They are somewhat watertight. Maybe someone can give the exact dimensions or a link. So you are saying that all 50 cal ammo is clipped in machine gun belts and stored in ammo cans? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/63 "2005-06-12T16:37:14Z")
Barry Popik has a [new entry](http://www.barrypopik.com/article/879/summary-capt-richard-strattons-1955-attestation) on his site which may have finally shed some light on this phrase. Scroll down the entry to find the email from Cmdr. Richard Stratton, an airman who served in Vietnam. I quote part of it: 1. Where first heard? Navy School of Preflight in July 1955 at the ACRAAC (Aviation Cadet Recreation and Athletic Club – a base beer hall; NavCad’s could not use O Club). Home of salacious & scatological songs, shaggy dog stories and off beat humor. 2. What meaning then? Referred to the mythical Andy McTavish’s private member and the scarf knitted by him for the birthday of his affianced, Mary Margaret MacMuff. 3. Explained in detail? Yes, in great detail. One of a series of stories and songs enshrining the courtship of Andy and Mary Margaret. The attachment mentioned is [here.](http://www.barrypopik.com/article/880/the-scotsmans-kilt) So whaddya all think? Can we say Bingo! with Popik? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/64 "2005-06-12T17:43:48Z")
Well, I have to say I am impressed. Sounds good to me. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/65 "2005-06-12T20:25:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > So whaddya all think? Can we say Bingo! with Popik? Tempting, but as others in the original thread over at the American Dialect Society say, “show me the print cite.” I’m not trying to be a curmudgeon, and I personally think this is the real deal, but when someone finds this story in the Pensacola Naval archives from anytime before 1966, it’s probably the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/66 "2005-06-13T01:01:15Z")
Even if the memory is accurate, the form in which the whole nine yards is used doesn’t tell us anything about the origin of the phrase. It’s clear that if the whole nine yards is the punchline of a joke, then it’s a phrase that’s already in widespread use. A 1955 cite might mean that a World War II origin is more likely than the Vietnam origin, but that particular joke doesn’t give us more info than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/67 "2005-06-13T01:08:55Z")
For whatever it’s worth, the song is fairly well known on the Renaissance-Faire circuit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/68 "2005-06-13T01:33:37Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s clear that if the whole nine yards is the punchline of a joke, then it’s a phrase that’s already in widespread use. I don’t think that’s clear at all. The punchline of a joke must be set up before it’s given, and in some cases, it’s set up in some element of popular culture. But here, it seems to be following the more usual method of being set up in the body of the joke. Mr. MacTavish exclaims “What, the whole nine yards?”, not because that was a widespread expression, but merely because that happens to be the length of the scarf he overenthusiastically knitted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/69 "2005-06-13T03:05:37Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > For whatever it’s worth, the song is fairly well known on the Renaissance-Faire circuit. It seems that the song, “Angus And The Kilt”, written by Lolly Foy, was copyrighted in 1991. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/70 "2005-06-13T11:06:50Z")
Odd, though, that one of the spurious explanations floating around for origin of this phrase is that nine yards is the amount of fabric in a Scotsman’s kilt. I’m not sure if that makes me more suspicious or more accepting. ---
**Author:** ![bradministrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bradministrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradministrator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/71 "2005-08-08T19:44:15Z")
Sorry to bump this, but it seems like the most current factual thread on “the whole nine yards” on SDMB. There’s a 1971 newspaper article available via Newspaper Archive (Burlington NC Daily News, Aug 11 71, pg 20-A, bottom right) which contains the following short factoid, devoid of context: > [@](#): > > As to how much is a “yard.” It’s $100, I’m told. And “The whole nine yards” is $1,000. Or so say the game-table boys. What the heck does that mean?? It’s within 4 years of the first print cite and yet the meaning seems to be completely different. I assume that it’s a gambling reference. And why does 9x100=1000? And Newspaper Archive also contains an 1855 usage of “the whole nine yards” which is in the context of a humorous story a la Angus and the scarf, about a judge who gets punk’d (as the kids today say) by a friend who has a seamstress make a shirt from 9 yards of fabric instead of the usual 3 yards. > [@](#): > > What a stupid, silly woman! I told her to get just enough to make three shirts; instead of making three she has put the whole nine yards into one shirt! The judge then has to tuck the extra 6 yards of fabric into his pants, to the merriment of all, including his wife’s, when she thinks it’s another woman’s shift. (Tioga County Agitator, March 29 1855, pg 1) ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/72 "2005-08-08T20:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > What the heck does that mean?? It’s within 4 years of the first print cite and yet the meaning seems to be completely different. I assume that it’s a gambling reference. And why does 9x100=1000? No, this isn’t a completely different usage. “The whole nine yards” was already being used to mean “all of it”, and presumably $1000 is “all of it”. As for the 9 x 100 = 1000, I have no clue. > [@](#): > > The judge then has to tuck the extra 6 yards of fabric into his pants, to the merriment of all, including his wife’s, when she thinks it’s another woman’s shift. (Tioga County Agitator, March 29 1855, pg 1) Now THAT is a curious find. However, this might be a one-off usage unrelated to the current usage. Unlikely anyone in the military in the 1960s would have been aware of this article. And if “the whole nine yards” had been in common oral usage since back to 1855, quite remarkable it wouldn’t show up in print again until 112 years later. ---
**Author:** ![bradministrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bradministrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradministrator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/73 "2005-08-10T16:53:55Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > No, this isn’t a completely different usage. “The whole nine yards” was already being used to mean “all of it”, and presumably $1000 is “all of it”. As for the 9 x 100 = 1000, I have no clue. Well, I guess what I was getting at is that usually “the whole nine yards” is used to mean “everything”, just like “kit and caboodle” and “everything but the kitchen sink.” (No one ever says “my new Toyota has everything but the kitchen sink and a navigation system.”) But here it’s used to mean “9 things taken together as a whole.” And reading over the Doom Pussy cites in another thread, it’s also used that way once in that book. (The character gets a spa treatment and the hot towel on his head is the “ninth yard.”) Splitting hairs, I agree, but it is a subtle difference in meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/74 "2005-08-10T17:25:23Z")
But my Toyota **does** have a kitchen sink. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411/75 "2005-08-15T15:07:24Z")
Funny thing, I’ve researched Scottish and Irish medieval clothing and textiles for years. Even met with a museum curator in Dublin to discuss some bog finds and her new book. With that in mind, I’ve heard the famous “nine-yards-to-a-kilt” thing for years, but I’ve yet to see any extant proof. People wove what they wove, and wore it. If peasant wove 3 yards, 7 yards, 6 ells or whatever it’s what he wore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classic-the-whole-9-yards/298411.md?page=3)