# Classical music fans: Who would you rate as history's second-tier composers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 11, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334 "2006-06-11T20:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/21 "2006-06-12T17:39:12Z")
Holst - still third-rate. “Has a handful of pieces which are pleasant enough and have become well-known” pretty much defines that category 😉 John Williams - not a chance. I’ve been pushing Mahler, Shostakovich etc. because of their widespread influence. One aspect of which has been providing Mr Williams with endless material to crib. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/22 "2006-06-12T17:48:35Z")
I think you need to define your criteria before you can make a call here. Otherwise you’re going to have the influence people at odds with the popularity people at odds with heaven knows what other criteria. Personally, I think popularity and longevity are absolutely valid criteria for this kind of judgment. I guess part of it comes down to whether you consider music written pretty much solely for other musicians/highly educated listeners is more important than music that reaches and possibly influences millions if not billions of less knowledgable listeners over many decades/centuries. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/23 "2006-06-12T17:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Personally, I think popularity and longevity are absolutely valid criteria for this kind of judgment. I guess part of it comes down to whether you consider music written pretty much solely for other musicians/highly educated listeners is more important than music that reaches and possibly influences millions if not billions of less knowledgable listeners over many decades/centuries. [/QUOTE] Absolutely not. My emphasis on _influential_ composers is that these are the ones who have an effect even on those listeners who never get to hear a note that they wrote. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/24 "2006-06-12T19:25:23Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] while the fact that Bach was rediscovered and repopularized by a 19th-century composer (can´t remember which) makes you wonder if there are other “Bachs” out there we’ll never know about. [/QUOTE] Actually, Lewis Lockwood, in his Beethoven [biography](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393326381), dispels the notion that Bach was “rediscovered”. > [@](#): > > Although the myth persists that Mendelssohn “rediscovered” Bach when he performed the _St. Matthew Passion_ in 1829, in fact Bach’s instrumental music and some of his vocal music had gradually become more and more available in prints and copies from the 1790s on. Influential as well in bringing the legend of Bach into the current marketplace of ideas were the musical periodicals. Indeed, the first issue of the Leipzig _Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung_, in 1798, bore a portrait of Bach facing its title page. Forkel’s _Bach_ biography, a very authoritative work, appeared in 1802. Between 1800 and 1809 many Bach works were issued by publishers in Leipzig, Berlin, and Zurich, including at least three competing editions of _The Well-Tempered Clavier_, several volumes of Bach’s motets, and other instrumental works including _The Art of Fugue_ and the “Goldberg” Variations. From 1811, publications included Bach’s _Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue;_ and in 1818 the B-minor Mass became available. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/25 "2006-06-12T19:52:33Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Absolutely not. My emphasis on **influential** composers is that these are the ones who have an effect even on those listeners who never get to hear a note that they wrote. [/QUOTE] I’m not at all sure I agree, particularly in the latter centuries. How much influence does a Mahler or a Prokofiev have beyond the rather narrow world of rather esoteric Serious Music? I’ll tell you what; play Mahler’s 4th and Tchaicovsky (oh, god, I’ve botched the spelling there, I’m sure)'s 1812 Overture. Most Serious Students of Classical Music have considered the latter junk for years, but which will really reach people and make them _feel_? Here’s a hint if you’re too educated to judge: it ain’t gonna be the Mahler. Of course, they’re only the great unwashed, and may be irrelevant. That seems to be the case in most art these days, including music. Actually producing something that an average person can understand and appreciate without having done graduate work is not only not important, it seems to be downright frowned upon. Sorry, I ended up on a hobby horse of mine. Carry on and ignore this post please. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/26 "2006-06-12T20:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] I’ll tell you what; play Mahler’s 4th and Tchaicovsky (oh, god, I’ve botched the spelling there, I’m sure)'s 1812 Overture. Most Serious Students of Classical Music have considered the latter junk for years, but which will really reach people and make them _feel_? Here’s a hint if you’re too educated to judge: it ain’t gonna be the Mahler. [/quote] My god, you’re really claiming that if I play the last movement of Mahler 4 to people, it’ll leave most of them cold? You must know different people to me…(and the poor attempt at inverted-snobbery anti-intellectualism doesn’t help your argument) And yes, Mahler in particular is _hugely_ influential, if anything even more so once you start to include crossover influences into things like soundtracks. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/27 "2006-06-13T12:35:25Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] My god, you’re really claiming that if I play the last movement of Mahler 4 to people, it’ll leave most of them cold? You must know different people to me…(and the poor attempt at inverted-snobbery anti-intellectualism doesn’t help your argument) And yes, Mahler in particular is _hugely_ influential, if anything even more so once you start to include crossover influences into things like soundtracks. [/QUOTE] Actually, I’m not anti-intellectual per se. I am simply tired of having accessibility to normal folks being a disqualification for being taken seriously, whether we’re talking music, visual art, literature, or film. I’ve been sick of it for decades. So, sweetheart, I’m not making an attempt (poor or otherwise) at anything. I’m saying what I believe. I’m sorry, it’s been a couple of decades or more since I’ve heard Mahler’s 4th (last movement); I chose Mahler because he’s by and large not a particularly accessible composer IMHO. But I DO know how much many people who aren’t attuned to or educated in classical music get off on the 1812 Overture. The very fact of its enduring popularity speaks to its ability to reach people. I’m not talking the movie \*du jour \* here - momentary popularity is irrelevant, based on many things other than the object itself. But this bugger has been popular for pretty much as long as it’s been around, which is over a hundred years. To me that indicates that it has something that seriously reaches people over time. Of course, I’m also of the opinion that Stephen King will be considered the literary equivalent of Dickens in a century or so, so take my opinions for what they’re worth… ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/28 "2006-06-13T13:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] And where would you put such giants as Handel and Vivaldi? [/QUOTE] A somewhat tongue-in-cheek book of music history I once read had this to say about Vivaldi [very paraphrased]: “Some critics have said that Vivaldi wrote one violin concerto 450 times. This is a highly unfair characterisation, and one which I would like to take this opportunity to correct. Vivaldi in fact wrote _two_ violin concertos 225 times each.” ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/29 "2006-06-13T17:09:32Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Actually, I’m not anti-intellectual per se. I am simply tired of having accessibility to normal folks being a disqualification for being taken seriously [/quote] Did I say it should be? > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, it’s been a couple of decades or more since I’ve heard Mahler’s 4th (last movement); I chose Mahler because he’s by and large not a particularly accessible composer IMHO. But I DO know how much many people who aren’t attuned to or educated in classical music get off on the 1812 Overture. Doesn’t make Tchaikovsky a great, important or influential composer. Or, if it does, Pachelbel ranks just as highly. Not a pleasant thought. > [@](#): > > Of course, I’m also of the opinion that Stephen King will be considered the literary equivalent of Dickens in a century or so, so take my opinions for what they’re worth… Will do 😉 … ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/30 "2006-06-13T17:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] The initial question should not be ‘who ranks as highly as Beethoven and Bach’, but ‘who are the composers who had a significant and individual impact on the history and progression of western music’. [/QUOTE] If we’re going to rank composers, I’d vote for doing it on the basis of who is _terrific_. We could do this on the basis of long-term reputation, number of concert performances, album sales, critics’ appraisal etc. Some of these provide objective measures. By any of them, Mahler is dangling precariously from the 4th or 5th tier.\* \*For practical purposes, “not accessible” and “lousy” verge on the synonymous. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/31 "2006-06-13T17:26:09Z")
OK, **Jackmannii** - Mahler scores highly on reputation, number of performances (allowing for logistics!), and quite probably album sales as well, if we’re comparing like-for-like and not just Three Tenors nonsense. And sure, there’s a minority of critics who have a problem. What knocks him down as far as the fifth tier? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/32 "2006-06-13T18:09:54Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] OK, **Jackmannii** - Mahler scores highly on reputation, number of performances (allowing for logistics!), and quite probably album sales as well, if we’re comparing like-for-like and not just Three Tenors nonsense. And sure, there’s a minority of critics who have a problem. What knocks him down as far as the fifth tier? [/QUOTE] I’d want to see cites for any of these assertions (“reputation” is tough to document, the others less so). Another criterion is performance on classical music stations - not much Mahler played on the ones I’ve listened to, especially during public station fund drives (probably related to that ol’ accessibility thing). I’d rank Mahler similarly to one of his contemporaries, Richard Strauss, who was honest about his place in music. Strauss once said: “I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/33 "2006-06-13T18:51:48Z")
Your criteria are moving from not-really-objective to thoroughly-biased-and-subjective. The fact alone that the OP specified the widest possible context eliminates any Austro-Hungarian-heavy radio station. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/34 "2006-06-13T19:35:38Z")
For an enjoyable sarcastic appraisal of Mahler’s achievements, we turn to Tom Lehrer, who once did a song (“Alma”) about a woman who married and/or cavorted with numerous semi-celebrities of her era, Mahler being one of them. From the live performance of “Alma”, listing her lovers: \*…One of the leading composers of the day: Gustav Mahler, composer of Das Lied von der Erde and other light classics, one of the leading architects: Walter Gropius of the Bauhaus school of design, and one of the leading writers: Franz Werfel, author of the Song of Bernadette and other masterpieces. it’s people like that who make you realize how little you’ve accomplished. "The first one she married was Mahler, Whose buddies all knew him as Gustav. And each time he saw her he’d holler: Ach, that is the fraulein I moost have! Their marriage, however, was murder. He’d scream to the heavens above, I’m writing Das Lied von der Erde, And she only wants to make love!"\* ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/35 "2006-06-13T20:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Another criterion is performance on classical music stations - not much Mahler played on the ones I’ve listened to, especially during public station fund drives (probably related to that ol’ accessibility thing). [/QUOTE] Well, both of these aren’t that bad as far as reaching for an “accessibility” measure goes. However, public stations have a clientele they need to reach as well which can skew their programming just like private stations. Just as private stations tend to program toward the stupid and young (or, to a lesser extent, the mediocre and middle-aged), which is where the advertising dollars are, public stations tend to program toward the rich and middle-aged and old because that’s who sends in the money. Measuring what’s played when they are reaching toward their _sponsorship base_ is as meaningless as claiming that everyone in America loves Reality TV because that’s all that’s on nowadays on commercial TV. Me, I’d love to see a station, whether public TV or public classical radio, lean more toward diversity and less toward spamming me with endless “Collectible/Renovation” shows and tired mid-20th century **HIT** music :rolleyes: on the one hand for TV and endless best-of late-Classical, Romantic-era and Opera on the other hand. (I also don’t particularly like their undue love for 20th century piano music either but I can’t complain that it’s particularly overexposed in pop culture, either.) ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/36 "2006-06-14T00:45:50Z")
It seems hard to designate any audience as suitable for adjudicating canonic rankings. Musicologists and classical music aficionados are niche consumers, judging by [average sales](http://www.artsjournal.com/artswatch/aw-deathofclassical.htm) (in Canada, 300 copies on average) and exposure of classical music outside this group is relegated to a few dozen clichés. That said, the [Classical Music Navigator](http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/music/) offers a list of the ‘[111 Most Influential Composers](http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/music/welcome.htm#special)’ compiled using the following methodology: _The information provided at this site was statistically arrived at; i.e., decisions as to which composers and which of their works should be included were based on objective criteria, not subjective preferences. The particular 444 composers selected scored highest on a combination of weighted variables including (but not limited to): (1) number of available recordings of their music as listed in several standard music recordings catalogs (Schwann, Gramophone, etc.); (2) number of items on and by the composers held by participating institutions in the OCLC “WorldCat” database (the combined holdings of over 20,000 libraries); and (3) overall size/length of entries on the composers in about a dozen standard reference works. In all, some two dozen variables were collected and integrated, including secondary information on recent trends of increase and decrease in the production of composer-related materials (e.g., number of recordings of their music, and books and theses written about them)._ (The 111 list is a result of further tweaking). ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/37 "2006-06-14T07:29:30Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Can’t we just skip the semantics…? [/QUOTE] Are you new here on the Board? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/38 "2006-06-14T12:34:44Z")
[QUOTE=II Gyan II] That said, the [Classical Music Navigator](http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/music/) offers a list of the ‘[111 Most Influential Composers](http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/music/welcome.htm#special)’ [/QUOTE] Interesting, but bizarre. It’s nice to see Rossini crack the top 20, but _Arnold Schoenberg_ at #8? 19 slots higher than Handel and 28 above Schubert? Who are they kidding? And Salieri over Copland and Elgar? Nutso. On the other hand, it’s good that Karlheinz Stockhausen wound up dead last, even with various critics falling over themselves to find something of significance in his work. They’ve haven’t _created_ a tier for that guy yet. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/39 "2006-06-14T16:26:48Z")
Schoenberg at no. 8 sounds fair enough to me. The absence of anything pre-1500 is more troubling, as it means the whole development of a unique and identifiable western musical culture is taken for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334/40 "2006-06-14T16:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Schoenberg at no. 8 sounds fair enough to me. [/QUOTE] Not to mention: #13. Richard Strauss #23. Gus Mahler 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-fans-who-would-you-rate-as-historys-second-tier-composers/360334.md?page=3)