# Classical music haters: Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 20, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957 "2019-08-20T20:19:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/101 "2019-08-21T20:32:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’ll assume you actually don’t perceive any element of snootiness in how classical music is performed. You’re the one who proposed the entrance of the concert master, subsequent applause, and tuning of the instruments as being an example of snootiness. It makes sense to me to ask exactly what about this is snooty and why similar actions in non-classical performances aren’t snooty. > [@](#): > > Fine. I - and I believe many others - feel differently. This looks like an appeal to belief, a fallacy. Basically what this bit seems to come down to is “I think it’s snooty because I want to think it’s snooty.” Given that “snooty” can be given a meaning that people generally understand, I should think that there would be less ambiguous examples of snootiness. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/102 "2019-08-21T21:37:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re the one who proposed the entrance of the concert master, subsequent applause, and tuning of the instruments as being an example of snootiness. > > It makes sense to me to ask exactly what about this is snooty and why similar actions in non-classical performances aren’t snooty. In rock concerts the roadies tune the guitars. Orchestras can’t afford that many roadies. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/103 "2019-08-21T21:54:54Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I do like classical music. But one thing that’s harder to appreciate, when you’re not hearing it in person, is the dynamics. There are pieces I love to hear live, because, heard live, they go from almost silent so it’s like you’re thinking the piece in your head, or sensing it in your bones, to bombastically loud, but yet not overpowering. > > On a recording? This doesn’t work. First you have to turn your sound up really loud, for the quiet parts. Then you have to jump up and turn it down so it doesn’t shatter your speakers, and make your windows rattle. . . In other genres of recorded music, they use compression to minimize the difference between the loud and soft parts. For whatever reason, they don’t use compression much in classical music. One of the reasons I prefer chamber music or solo piano works to symphonic stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/104 "2019-08-21T21:55:09Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > But does anybody dance to it ;)? (the listener, not the ballet) I guess you aren’t aware that the third movement of a classical symphony was a dance. And that all of Beethoven’s 7th symphony is dance related. No, they are not going to make you shake your booty, but if that is what is important to you you must think that disco is the absolute height of western music. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/105 "2019-08-21T22:08:06Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Once I went to a concert because my cousin was playing. I didn’t see a piano, and I hadn’t got a program when I went in, so I asked the lady [sic!] next to me if I could have a look at her program, just to get an idea when my cuz might be coming on. She said: “I don’t have a program. I know what I’m listening to.” > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Sounds like someone who _knew_ the music, but had never _felt_ the music, and so she was insecure for knowing, deep down, she never _groked_ the music. Let’s give her points for trying, but she still fails. Geez, guys, maybe she did in fact know the music, and therefore just didn’t bother to get a program! I’d like to say that I have an idea why classical music is not so popular anymore, but it would be mere conjecture. I do know that in the prime’s of people like Leopold Stokowski and even Leonard Bernstein, you could come across it being played on the radio, if even accidentally. Are kids still forced to take piano or violin? I was introduced to the concept of classical music thru the Peanuts, specifically Schroeder’s love of Beethoven. Wasn’t exactly who Beethoven was back then, but I knew he was someone adults probably liked. Anything then that was “adult” seemed appealing to me, so I checked out a Beethoven album from the library. Listened to it once and took it back, but at least I had an inkling what it was all about… ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/106 "2019-08-21T22:15:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I guess you aren’t aware that the third movement of a classical symphony was a dance. And that all of Beethoven’s 7th symphony is dance related. And not only that, the seventh is “the apotheosis of dance”, as the great German composer Richard Wagner famously described it. 😉 But more important, I mentioned the 7th earlier, and now you brought it up again. Yay! Please join me in imploring everyone here to listen to it at least once. Paraphrasing David Letterman, who many times said of bands on his show, “that’s all ya need right there!”, it’s got everything you need in a symphony. Anyway, pedantic begging mode now over… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/107 "2019-08-21T22:47:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > One thing I don’t get at all is musical theater. Sometimes they’re fun, but generally I feel like I’m sitting through a couple of hours of alternating not-great dialogue with not-great songs. People go for it though, so I guess I must be overlooking something. Some musicals are wonderful – I’m thinking of _Oklahoma_ or _Hello, Dolly_. Other musicals have a great song or two and that’s it. There are some musicals that are shite. I’m thinking of _Clue_, which I saw a few years ago. That was a big waste of money. Sturgeon’s Law applies to everything. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/108 "2019-08-21T23:58:14Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > And not only that, the seventh is “the apotheosis of dance”, as the great German composer Richard Wagner famously described it. 😉 But more important, I mentioned the 7th earlier, and now you brought it up again. Yay! Please join me in imploring everyone here to listen to it at least once. Paraphrasing David Letterman, who many times said of bands on his show, “that’s all ya need right there!”, it’s got everything you need in a symphony. Anyway, pedantic begging mode now over… Robert Greenberg’s section on the Seventh in his Beethoven Symphonies course was titled “The Symphony as Dance.” You nailed the fourth movement, I wanted to mention that all the movements were dance related. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/109 "2019-08-22T00:25:18Z")
> [@Moris](#): > > I can’t find the source, but I saw an article which says that opera vocals sound the way they do because audience needs to _hear_ it. It’s a genre that never adopted to the invention of microphone. That would be Broadway music, or soundtracks from musical productions. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/110 "2019-08-22T00:27:00Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > But does anybody dance to it ;)? (the listener, not the ballet) What about the minuet? The waltz? The polonaise/polska? Flamenco? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/111 "2019-08-22T00:35:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That may be true for you, I can’t think of any examples from my own life where that has been the case. Do you ever read satire? I’d imagine that it’s nearly impossible to enjoy a work of satire entirely on its own merits, without any idea of what it’s satirizing. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/112 "2019-08-22T00:44:58Z")
I know that some people think classical music is boring, but I’ve never thought so. I was planning to say I like just about all genres of music (which you’d know if you saw my cd collection), but I really hate country and country performers. Total turn off. But I adore Prokofiev. And Stravinsky! Heh. a billion years ago I was in a record store (heh) in Century City buying an LP :eek: of L’Histoire du Soldat. The clerk noticed what I was buying and said a guy came in a day or two earlier and asked for The Sacred Printer. The clerk said what? And the guy said, yeah, The Sacred Printer by Stravinsky. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/113 "2019-08-22T01:20:59Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > …I was planning to say I like just about all genres of music (which you’d know if you saw my cd collection), but I really hate country and country performers. Total turn off. > > … Hmm - Patsy Cline? Emmylou Harris? Johnny Cash? … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/114 "2019-08-22T07:53:45Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > The clerk noticed what I was buying and said a guy came in a day or two earlier and asked for The Sacred Printer. The clerk said what? And the guy said, yeah, The Sacred Printer by Stravinsky. 😃 I like classical, even though I’m not knowledgeable about it. I came to it a bit late in life, dragged in somewhat because I came to like ballet first. I find this whole thread very reminiscent of various threads we’ve had about abstract art. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/115 "2019-08-22T09:10:00Z")
I’m not particularly an opera fan, but there are many brilliant arias in opera. Opera… is certainly pretentious today, but it wasn’t always. At its height in Italy in the 19th century, opera was popular entertainment. It wasn’t regarded with reverence. The audience shouted comments, booed if they didn’t like the performers, walked in and out during performances, treated popular singers like rock stars. The words matter in opera, as much as in country music or folk songs, and the stories are the soapiest of soap opera stories (there’s a reason it’s called ‘soap opera’). Melodrama and high emotions are pervasive. Many operas are set in ‘exotic’ locations - ancient Egypt, Japan, medieval Italy, or have fairytale or fantasy elements. They appealed to ordinary uneducated people in Italy. American musicals like Oklahoma, Show Boat, Guys and Dolls, etc. are simply an evolution of opera, converted into English and into American culture. To get a sense of opera, go back to singers like Mario Lanza. His recordings are decent quality, but his style is an older, less pretentious style. He sings with real emotion and cares about the words. The movie _The Great Caruso_ (1951) is well worth watching as an introduction to opera. [Montage from the movie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrzJylLjRSU) - very short scenes from: - Il Trovatore (“Don’t forget me, Leonora, farewell!”) - Rigoletto (Duke of Mantua tries to seduce a girl) - Tosca (Guy is about to executed the next day - ‘Life has never been so dear to me.’) - Cavalleria Rusticana (Village tavern scene) Watch it as soapy Italian melodrama with music! Also from _The Great Caruso_, a [couple of scenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9KoDX25LWw) from the opera Martha - and Caruso (played by Mario Lanza) falls ill in the finale. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/116 "2019-08-22T10:30:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you ever read satire? I’d imagine that it’s nearly impossible to enjoy a work of satire entirely on its own merits, without any idea of what it’s satirizing. I read “Alice in Wonderland” and “Gulliver’s Travels” as a kid and “Animal Farm” and “1984” as young lad without any knowledge of their background. I enjoyed them immensely on their own merits and as I’ve learned more about them I can honestly say that their emotional impact is not any greater now. From an academic and intellectual point of view I _know_ more but I don’t believe I am more effected by them or _enjoy_them more. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/117 "2019-08-22T11:29:53Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Opera… is certainly pretentious today, but it wasn’t always. Disagree. An opera is an opera. It’s the same opera today as when it was written. However, some opera fans are certainly pretentious. Whole venues are pretentious. The Met, in NYC, is pretentious. > [@jaycat](#): > > In other genres of recorded music, they use compression to minimize the difference between the loud and soft parts. For whatever reason, they don’t use compression much in classical music. One of the reasons I prefer chamber music or solo piano works to symphonic stuff. It’s hard to grasp the full dynamic range of (some) classical music listening to the devices on which recordings of that that music is typically played back. When I was a kid, my father allowed himself one indulgence. He didn’t have a sports car, or go out a lot, or have expensive hobbies. But he did have an amazing stereo system (which we kids were not allowed to touch, ever). Separate power and pre-amps for each channel, huge and amazing speakers, a turntable that looked like something out of a science fiction movie, and lots of tubes that glowed when the whole thing was turned on. On the right equipment, you really can hear the full dynamic range. But that equipment isn’t available to most people. I don’t have anything like that today. > [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > Some musicals are wonderful – I’m thinking of _Oklahoma_ or _Hello, Dolly_. > > Other musicals have a great song or two and that’s it. > > There are some musicals that are shite. I’m thinking of _Clue_, which I saw a few I wish I knew more about musical theater. The only songs I know I know because I’ve listened to them performed by jazz musicians. Which is, obviously, a whole different thing. > [@MrDibble](#): > > 😃 > > I like classical, even though I’m not knowledgeable about it. I came to it a bit late in life, dragged in somewhat because I came to like ballet first. > > I find this whole thread very reminiscent of various threads we’ve had about abstract art. I came to classical music early in life. It was the only music I heard at home when I was growing up. I came late to rock music – didn’t hear any until I was in high school (in the 70s). I loved, and still love, rock, or at least some rock. Who wouldn’t love rock if your introduction to the genre was hanging out at CBGB listening to the Ramones? But I’m glad I grew up on classical. My worry about my own kids growing up on pop music is that their attention span for music will end at five minutes, and they’ll only be able to appreciate simple harmonies and melodies and rhythms. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/118 "2019-08-22T13:09:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I read “Alice in Wonderland” and “Gulliver’s Travels” as a kid and “Animal Farm” and “1984” as young lad without any knowledge of their background. I enjoyed them immensely on their own merits and as I’ve learned more about them I can honestly say that their emotional impact is not any greater now. From an academic and intellectual point of view I _know_ more but I don’t believe I am more effected by them or _enjoy_them more. You keep mentioning emotional impact. If the _only_ enjoyment you’re getting is on an emotional level, you’re missing a lot. Classical music, like virtually any other art form, has at least the potential of appealing to the head _and_ the heart. (And, in the case of music, I might add, to the ears and to the feet: It can make you think; it can make you feel; it can be catchy “ear candy”; it can make you tap your toes.) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/119 "2019-08-22T14:19:09Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > You keep mentioning emotional impact. If the _only_ enjoyment you’re getting is on an emotional level, you’re missing a lot. Not sure I understand you. I don’t think enjoyment is quantifiable other than by referring to the emotional impact experienced. The emotional impact \*you \*experience may be increased by additional knowledge and the ability to analyse. That is nice for you but I can’t see how you are enjoying it any more than I am and I can confirm my enjoyment levels are not enhanced in that way so “missing out” is not an accurate description. I listen to the Enigma Variations without any prior knowledge and put my enjoyment level at a 9/10. I research Elgar and the background to the piece and when listening again I put my enjoyment level at 9/10 I don’t enjoy the music any more in the latter scenario. Certainly I end up better educated, I know more about the world, I may understand more about the motivations and be able to see exactly what is happening. But…at no point do I think any of that helps me _enjoy_ it more. Perhaps I just experience music in a different way to you, the visceral experience of it is what matters to me. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957/120 "2019-08-22T14:33:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Not sure I understand you. I don’t think enjoyment is quantifiable other than by referring to the emotional impact experienced. The emotional impact \*you \*experience may be increased by additional knowledge and the ability to analyse. That is nice for you but I can’t see how you are enjoying it any more than I am and I can confirm my enjoyment levels are not enhanced in that way so “missing out” is not an accurate description. > > I listen to the Enigma Variations without any prior knowledge and put my enjoyment level at a 9/10. > I research Elgar and the background to the piece and when listening again I put my enjoyment level at 9/10 I’m not talking about things like biographical background on the composer. I’m talking about the content of the music itself beyond its strictly emotional appeal. Things like the structure, the “plot,” the development (as **Les Espaces Du Sommeil** discussed in [Post 40](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21817628&postcount=40)), the way the music conforms to or defies the expectations it builds up in the listener. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/classical-music-haters-why/838957.md?page=7)