# Clean energy becomes abundant and cheap: How does the world change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774 "2002-04-15T17:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/21 "2002-04-23T08:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Fuel cells (I assume you are talking about the ones that convert hydrogen into electricity) are a means of storing energy, not producing it. Actually, I think he’s referring to the fuel reformer used in conjunction with a fuel cell. The reformer pulls hydrogen out of any hydrocarbon fuel, from gasoline to methanol to ethanol (I think ethanol is one of them). [http://www.fuelcells.org/whatis.htm](http://www.fuelcells.org/whatis.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/22 "2002-04-23T09:57:41Z")
[Dean Kamen](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.09/kamen.html) + [Stirling engine](http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=1) = abundant and cheap energy, at some point in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/23 "2002-04-23T15:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*What would happen if someone were to invent a coffee pot sized source of effectively limitless energy? \*\* One thing we haven’t covered here is the possible environmental effects of limitless energy. Even if our “Mr. Fusion” is dead clean it will still emit one kind of pollution - thermal pollution. As the device becomes more popular there would be no need to design things for efficiency because, hey, why be efficient when you have a limitless supply of energy? A whole lot of energy would be lost as heat in areas where these devices are used. It wouldn’t be much of a problem at first, but a limitless source of energy could produce a nearly limitless **use** of this new energy on a global scale. Even with moderate efficiency, limitless energy use means limitless thermal loss. The massive amount of waste heat would have to go _somewhere_. A new technology may need to be developed to radiate some of the waste heat out into space in order to avoid massive global warming. It’s even possible we would want to build giant space based canopies to block some of the sun’s fusion produced radiation because we have just too damn much of our own fusion energy from our kitchen appliances. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/24 "2002-04-23T18:04:04Z")
You’re on to something there. The nice thing about a Stirling engine, though, is that it runs off of _any_ heat source. Some of that waste heat could be directed back to the engine, and if it was running off solar heat in the first place, there wouldn’t be too much waste heat. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/25 "2002-04-23T18:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sturmhauke \* > \*\*You’re on to something there. The nice thing about a Stirling engine, though, is that it runs off of _any_ heat source. \*\* Actually, it needs a heat difference to run off of, not just a heat source. You need a hot side and a cold side. If everything’s hot, you can’t generate any electricity. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/26 "2002-04-23T19:19:17Z")
**sturmhauke** , **AndrewL** , as promising as stirling engines may be, we need to remember that the _engine_ isn’t the source of the energy. It’s promise lies in increased efficiency - not energy production itself. **dalovindj** gave an unspecified “unlimited energy _source_”. This could be fusion, a singularity, so called “vaccum energy”, or whatever…but not a better engine. My point was that if this source is unlimited, people would find more and more uses for massive loads of power. Future technology would capitalize on this energy glut and even single family homes would draw as much power as small towns do now. (how many amps does an anti-gravity skateboard draw anyway? What about junior’s home particle accelerator set? and the fully interactive 3-D holographic home entertainment center?) Since efficiency isn’t a consideration either, this massive power use would create massive heat - homes would just use even more energy to pipe it away and to cool the living areas. There’s no reason to tap the heat for use because we _already_ have an unlimited supply of energy the size of a cofee maker. Why get water from a well when you have indoor plumbing? In 2150, with the worlds population at say, 50 billion, we might have a thermal problem if everyone of those 50 billion used that much power - and generated that much waste heat. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/27 "2002-04-23T23:00:42Z")
It’s possible to build a Stirling engine that needs only a small temperature differential. Theoretically, you could put the hot side out in the sun, and the cold side underground or in an insulated shed or something. You could attach an electrical generator to the Stirling engine. The unlimited energy source in this case is the sun (I know it’s not always available). This set up is not going to generate any more heat energy than originally went into the Stirling engine. Maybe eventually power demand would outstrip the capacity of a bunch of Stirling engines, but it would at least alleviate the problem. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/28 "2002-04-24T00:09:38Z")
bbeaty wrote: > [@](#): > > I think the “grease drippings” (actually deep-fry oil) first is converted into diesel fuel and this needs a diesel engine. The exhaust supposedly smells like french fries! The problem is in the fuel conversion: it uses caustic lye, and leaves gallons of nasty chemical waste for each tankfull of fuel produced. That’s not the only, nor the largest problem. The “use old frying oil as a motor fuel” idea is working now because it’s only in use in a very few test vehicles. Right now, fast food restaurants have no use for their waste frying oil and would otherwise throw it out. **But,** If frying-oil engines catch on, to the extent that gasoline or diesel-fuel powered engines have caught on today, you will be faced with a very big problem: **the supply of available deep-fry oil is far smaller than the supply of available petroleum!** Until all the oil wells in the world start running dry, petroleum distillates will **always** be cheaper than animal or vegetable oils, simply because there’s so much more of it around. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/29 "2002-04-24T00:14:48Z")
Beeblebrox wrote, re Thermal Pollution: > [@](#): > > A new technology may need to be developed to radiate some of the waste heat out into space in order to avoid massive global warming. It’s even possible we would want to build giant space based canopies to block some of the sun’s fusion produced radiation because we have just too damn much of our own fusion energy from our kitchen appliances. Or we could just pack up and move to Pluto. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/30 "2002-04-24T02:25:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > The main argument against wind technology is that 1) it is dependendt on the wind which is not always reliable and 2) in order to power a small town, you need a field of windmills nearly the size of the town itself. I think what you’re forgetting here is that we have a huge electrical power grid, so electricity generated in one place can be transported (with some losses, admittedly) to other places. In particular, as long as wind isn’t making up a huge fraction of the electrical power generation this variability isn’t such an issue and if the windmills are in several different geographic locations then the variability is reduced anyway. Similarly with solar, people are often arguing that it is only good when the sun shines, but the latest concept is this reverse-metering where a home can have photovoltaic cells and use them to feed the power grid at some times and then can draw from the power grid at other times. The great thing about this is that one of the times when the cells would tend to be feeding the power grid the most is precisely during sunny hot weather when electrical power is needed the most because of everybody running their air conditioners! Of course, if we ever get to the point where these are supplying the majority of our power, then the variabilities may become more of an issue. However, that day is still far enough off that the argument is really still mute at this point. > [@](#): > > Even with free clean energy the oil industry wouldn’t collapse. Crude oil is a feedstock in hundreds of industrial applications. So long as we still need to make plastic, motor oil, and countless other products based on petrolium byproducts, the oil companies will stay in business. Yes, but it would probably contract a lot. I once was able to find a nice breakdown on the American Petroleum Institute website showing the breakdown of how a barrel of oil gets used. I can’t find it anymore on their new website, but as I recall, the vast majority of oil goes for energy use. Making plastics, for example, accounts for a surprisingly miniscule percentage. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774/31 "2002-04-24T02:38:23Z")
Well, I did manage to find the thread where we had the previous discussion about what a barrel of oil goes into producing, and here is what I said at the time, based on the API info that used to be easy to find on their website (urgh!): > [@](#): > > A barrel of crude oil is 42 gallons but yields 44.2 gallons of fun stuff due to “processing gain”. Of this, 19.5 gallons are gasoline. Furthermore, another 9.2 gallons is “distillate fuel oil” which includes both home heating oil and diesel fuel. Finally, another 4.1 gallons is “kerosene-type jet fuel” and 2.3 gallons is “residual fuel oil” used in industry, marine transportation, and for electric power generation. That leaves less than 10 gallons for everything else! As near as I can tell, all the “cool” plastic products and stuff that people talk about falls “other” which accounts for only 0.3 gallons!!! > > Moral of the story: roughly half of a barrel of crude is used to power our cars and trucks (just as Anthracite claimed, I believe), and about another quarter is used for other transportation, heating, and power generation…leaving less than a quarter for everything else, of which only a tiny, miniscule fraction is the “cool” petrochemical products that people like to point to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clean-energy-becomes-abundant-and-cheap-how-does-the-world-change/103774.md?page=1)