# Cleaning the streets in the horse and wagon days **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248 "2007-01-09T03:10:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/21 "2007-01-10T15:35:33Z")
[QUOTE=JohnT] Hell, tanners in 19th-century London would hire people to gather up dog crap, to be used in the tanning process. [/QUOTE] Well, not _hired_. Pure collectors were freelance, selling buckets of turds to tanneries rather than recieving a salary or hourly wage. You could make a fairly decent wage at it if you had a regular source. Surprisingly, to modern sensibilities, this was considered to be a “higher” profession than rag or bone collectors. [Here](http://www.victorianlondon.org/frame-professions.htm) excerpt from a book called\* Labour and Poor\*, 1849-50 by Henry Mayhew. > [@](#): > > What they look for most is the “pure.” Some of the regular collectors of this article have been mechanics, and others small tradesmen. They are a superior class of persons to the mere rag and bonepickers, and those who have a good connection and the right of cleansing certain kennels obtain a very fair living at it, earning from 10s. to l5s. a week. These, however, are very few. The majority have to seek the article solely in the streets, and by such means they can obtain only from 6s. to 10s. a week. The average weekly earnings of this class are thought to be between 7s. and 8s. The “pure” gatherer, after he has been his rounds, makes the best of his way to some tanner in Bermondsey, to whom he is in the habit of selling the article. He sells it to the tanner by the stable bucketful, and gets from 8d. to 10d. per bucket for it. It is used for the purpose of cleansing sheep and calf skins after they are taken out of the “lime-pits.” A man generally picks up about a bucketful in the course of the day. My informant earned last week 5s. 2d., and the week before about 6s.; and these he believes to be a fair sample of the earnings of the class. He has been at the calling about four years. He was originally in the Manchester cotton trade, and held a lucrative situation in a large country establishment. His salary one year exceeded £250, and his regular income was £150. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/22 "2007-01-10T15:51:03Z")
The metal window screen is a modern invention. Relect on this, in terms of _manure_, _houseflies_ and _high summer heat_. Keep the windows closed to keep swarms of flies out, & roast. Keep em open, & get eaten alive. BTW–I do not want to live in “the good old days”, 'cause they _weren’t_! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/23 "2007-01-10T18:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Are there any modern estimates of how polluted London’s air was in 1900? [/QUOTE] This is discussed extensively in Barbara Freese’s book _Coal_, which obviously focuses primarily on the subject of its title but has some good general discussions of air quality in London and elsewhere. Sample excerpt: > [@](#): > > On most days, the air of London was still cleaner than Manchester’s _[an industrial center that suffered greatly from air pollution]_, but under certain cold and windless conditions, the combined effect of smoke and fog could plunge London into almost complete darkness in the daytime, stopping much of the city in its tracks. Of one such day in 1812, the _Times_ reported that “for the greater part of the day it was impossible to read or write at a window without artificial light. Persons in the streets could scarcely be seen in the forenoon at two yards distance.” This was unusual enough to make it into the next day’s paper, but not strange enough to warrant more than a brief mention. There’s a lot more in the book. Recommended reading for anyone interested in the history of energy and industry and their impact on quality of life. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/24 "2007-01-11T00:49:32Z")
any reports from mac. island mich.? that is one place in the u.s. that uses horse driven locomotion. granted the horses are used mostly in the non-snow months…but there aren’t many places on the island where you can get away from the smell. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/25 "2007-01-11T02:43:25Z")
I recall reading a stat that, based on 1970s car volume, if all the cars magically turned to horses, the freeways of LA would be 80 FEET deep in manure at the end of the first day. A bit of a disposal problem. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/26 "2007-01-11T02:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=LSLGuy] I recall reading a stat that, based on 1970s car volume, if all the cars magically turned to horses, the freeways of LA would be 80 FEET deep in manure at the end of the first day. A bit of a disposal problem. [/QUOTE] Perhaps. If the horses were 1000-foot high behemoths with a diet of Taco Bell and Ex-Lax. Do you really believe that “statistic”? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/27 "2007-01-11T13:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Gives a new meaning to “not knowing shit from Shinola” [/QUOTE] Not just tanners & bootblacks. When you look at Rembrandt’s amazing use of light and shadow, you’re looking at a surface masterfully smeared with shit. [In some’s opinion, he got a little too carried away with it (possibly NSFW)](http://www.rembrandtpainting.net/rmbrdnt_selected_etchings/selected_etchings_images/woman_urinating.jpg) As we’ve learned from Cecil Adams, the brown in feces is from dead red blood cells. Before modern chemistry, we took our pigments where we found them. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/28 "2007-01-11T13:43:31Z")
There’s something mentioned in the _Little House_ books, called mosquito-bar. I always interpreted it as a fine netting, and it’s used to cover windows and doors. Did they not have it in the early 19th? When was it invented? Was it not in general use? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/29 "2007-01-11T13:58:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lissla Lissar] There’s something mentioned in the _Little House_ books, called mosquito-bar. I always interpreted it as a fine netting, and it’s used to cover windows and doors. Did they not have it in the early 19th? When was it invented? Was it not in general use? [/QUOTE] No, it is a form of mosquito netting, to be draped over a sleeping person in bed. > **[Mosquito net](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_bar)** > > Mosquito net is a type of meshed curtain or cloth that is circumferentially draped over a bed or a sleeping area to offer the sleeper barrier protection against bites and stings from mosquitos, flies, and other pest insects, and thus against the diseases they may carry. Examples of such preventable insect-borne diseases include malaria, dengue fever, yellow fever, zika virus, Chagas disease, and various forms of encephalitis, including the West Nile virus. To be effective, the mesh of a mosquito... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/30 "2007-01-11T14:21:58Z")
This brings up an interesting point - they had mosquito-bar in the 19th century. They also had fine mesh wire domes that they placed over food to keep the flies out (you can see some of these at places like Sturbridge Village, that recreate 19th century life), so why _not_ put such screens, or even coarsely woven cloth (coarse enough to not block ventilation, but fine enough to keep out flies) over windows? Certainly the fact that they had these kinds of products shows that they had the technology. (And you wouldn’t have to put it over all windows – as anyone can tell you, having just one or two windows open – but with screens – makes an enormous difference from the syifling stuffiness of no open windows). I asked the folks at Sturbridge about this once – they were cooking in a country kitchen, and the place was _swarming_ with flies, except for the dishes covered with flyscreens – and they said that flies were simply accepted as part of life, and nobody even thought of trying to block them. Of course, that’s not the impression you get from the opening number of **1776** , with the debate about open or closed windows in Congress. That scene was adapted from real life – there was a stable around the corner, and in summer the horseflies were intolerable in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/31 "2007-01-11T14:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] Perhaps. If the horses were 1000-foot high behemoths with a diet of Taco Bell and Ex-Lax. Do you really believe that “statistic”? [/QUOTE] Maybe 8 feet? or 80 inches… 80 feet seems quite much. A stat like that would have to take into account the mileage (per vehicle day) and compare that to mileage (per horse day). If vehicles travelled 40 miles per day and horses 4-6 miles per day you’d have to take the average horse dung excreted and muliply it by a factor to make it equivolent to the car’s travel. So, were probably talking between 6-10 times the dung (which an earlier post stated was between 5-15 kilo’s of dung per day would turn into 40-120 kilos per day multiplied by about 4 million cars. Splitting the difference between 40-120 gives us 80 kilos/day \* 4 million = 320,000,000 kilos per day of dung. Now divide that by the square footage of street in LA (I haven’t the foggiest) and you’d be close to an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/32 "2007-01-11T14:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Rich folk in the city either had their houses well set back from the street, or else lived on upper floors, away from the dust. [/QUOTE] Why, Sir–nobody of any quality summers in the city! One goes to one’s little place in Newport. Or perhaps to one’s camp in the Adirondacks. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/33 "2007-01-11T15:00:48Z")
[QUOTE=slaphead] I have no idea, but it would indeed have been pretty damn horrific. Interestingly, people have [tried calculating pollution from Monet paintings [PDF]](http://www.iop.org/activity/groups/subject/env/Previous_Events/file_7417.pdf). This presentation also mentions some work done by a lighting company in 1900 that showed visibility was less than 1.5 miles all winter(!). It’s a bit earlier than you want, but some articles by Marx and Engels give a pretty good idea of just how grotty things could get. Make the appropriate adjustments for political views, but they are still accurate reportage. [The Great Towns - 1845](http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch04.htm) [/QUOTE] Did the Victorians ever have swimming competitions in the thames, at London? I can’t imagine that any of the rivers in England were fit for swimming at that time! The good old days were not “clean old days!” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/34 "2007-01-11T15:01:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Why, Sir–nobody of any quality summers in the city! Maybe, but there were times when you were in the city that you’d like to have the windows open, even aside from the hottest and sultriest days of the summer. It gets warm in April, May, and early June ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/35 "2007-01-11T15:48:41Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] This brings up an interesting point - they had mosquito-bar in the 19th century. They also had fine mesh wire domes that they placed over food to keep the flies out (you can see some of these at places like Sturbridge Village, that recreate 19th century life), so why _not_ put such screens, or even coarsely woven cloth (coarse enough to not block ventilation, but fine enough to keep out flies) over windows? . [/QUOTE] Mesg metal screens could be made, but at a cost that was prohibitive. It’s one thing to make one a couple of square feet in area to cover a bowl, and another to make one large enough to cover a single window. Cloth was possible, but I think flies were just accepted as part of life (no germ theory). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/36 "2007-01-11T16:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Mesg metal screens could be made, but at a cost that was prohibitive. It’s one thing to make one a couple of square feet in area to cover a bowl, and another to make one large enough to cover a single window. > > Cloth was possible, but I think flies were just accepted as part of life (no germ theory). You only need a couple of square feet to fill a frame that fits in a window opened part way. I had such a screen on my window back in my pre-air-conditioned stident days. Certainly not beyond the creativity and ability of 19th century farmer-inventors. Especially guys like the ever-inventive Shakers. And you could always use “panes” of tin pierced with holes – that’s how they made “pie safes” , and some lanterns. All you’d have to do is increase the number of holes. Work – but not prohibitively hard or expensive. I have t assume t falls in the bin of “everyone accepted it, so it wasn’t seen as necessary.” A cultural blind-spot. But I’m still surprised that the annoyance factor didn’t prompt someone to come up with this. You don’t need to have a Germ Theory of Disease to become exasperated with biting horseflies. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/37 "2007-01-11T17:01:52Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Cloth was possible, but I think flies were just accepted as part of life (no germ theory). [/QUOTE] I don’t know how accepted they were, given the amount of mentions in housekeeping books of the day regarding how to combat them. One was to place saucers around the room containing sugar and cream which would trap and drown the flies. (There were also various commercial fly traps which work on the same principle.) I have also heard mention of coating cedar boughs in molasses or other sticky sugar mixture and hanging it from the ceiling as a fly trap. I even have seen suggestions to add laundry bluing to paint because it supposedly repells flies. Wealthy people would have a servant using a “fly swisher” over their heads during dinner parties. Flyswatters made of mesh were commonly available. Some sources mention burning a little pot of herbs as a repellent, but this doesn’t seem to be as common. ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248/38 "2007-01-11T22:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] …horseflies were intolerable in Congress. [/QUOTE] As are Congressmen, even today. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleaning-the-streets-in-the-horse-and-wagon-days/387248.md?page=1)