# Cleanliness **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 2, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505 "2024-01-02T17:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/1 "2024-01-02T17:39:22Z")
Every day there are articles in various mainstream media which purport to distill the sage advice of Scientists on the subject of hygiene. Not only how and when to clean one’s body, but also how often to wash your towels and your refrigerator and your dog, essential hygienic precautions while traveling, in the office, and so forth. Yet, with few exceptions, what is never discussed is what all this diligence is saving us _from_, besides perhaps public opprobrium and personal squickiness. Even when such are mentioned, the statistical risks are never discussed. What can you catch from a public toilet seat? From a dirty sink? From going weeks without washing your hair? What _exactly_? Is this theoretical or does it actually happen? I’ll freely confess that I live a quite dirty life compared to the majority of Americans. I live on a farm, I sleep with dogs, I drink raw milk (from my own goats), I eat fruits and vegetables without washing them. When I wash my hands I am often amazed at how much sheer dirt comes off. And yet, I’m apparently much less prone to contagious diseases than my peers – never had Covid, haven’t had the flu for years … which I attribute mainly to my lifestyle not being compatible with strangers breathing on me much. It certainly has nothing to do with cleanliness at all. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/2 "2024-01-02T19:49:46Z")
I can’t answer the question directly. But it’s great question to ask. Broadly, human illness comes from ingesting things that are chemically incompatible like poisonous plants & fungi, heavy metals, etc. Or from encountering bacteria or viruses coming directly off other humans or the stuff they’ve touched or pooped in or whatever. The final source of human morbidity is dietary insufficiencies, like the “goiter belt” in the old USA where soil deficiencies in iodine meant everybody nearby was malnourished as to that one nutrient. This latter source of trouble isn’t really relevant to personal hygiene, so I’ll drop it right here. My conclusion: If you (any you) live a substantially solitary life upstream of most sources of human disease-encrusted waste, you have nearly nothing to fear. Some diseases jump from other species to humans (COVID?) but the odds that any one of us will have enough animal encounters to get to be patient zero in a novel zoonotic disease are infinitesimal. This came out in the very early stages of COVID and is still relevant today: > **[Pathogen Resistance](https://xkcd.com/2287/)** > > We're not trapped in here with the coronavirus. The coronavirus is trapped in here with us. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/3 "2024-01-02T20:02:59Z")
I’m not willing to be a test subject for public toity germs. I avoid as much as possible. If it’s imperative I have a little can of spray in my bag and sanitizer wipes on me and wash my hands thoroughly after. I’m not really afraid of my own germs. I’m pretty clean in the bathrooms anyway. 'Cause I just don’t like nasty. I’m slightly afraid of the grandkids biological travelers. So bleach is my friend for clean up after them. If you have created your own bio-life world that keeps you healthy, I give you props. If you get COVID thru some virus you picked up in some odd way and haven’t been vaccinated, beware pharmacies are low on the COVID med that’s cheap. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/4 "2024-01-02T20:19:23Z")
Just to be clear, my point(s) were not about COVID specifically. You catch all human diseases pretty much only from other humans or their poop / pee. Don’t hang around humans or their waste and you won’t get sick. You can’t catch what isn’t there to be caught. Which works plenty well for rural folks as the OP can attest. Works less well for the rest of us who live dense urban lives hip deep in fellow humans. That comic came out at the very beginning of the lock-down phase of COVID management when it seemed possible we could let it burn itself out then return to a COVID-free future just like the COVID-free past. A month later it was obvious the public at large had enough non-cooperators that that solution was doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/5 "2024-01-02T20:24:38Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Even when such are mentioned, the statistical risks are never discussed. What can you catch from a public toilet seat? From a dirty sink? From going weeks without washing your hair? What _exactly_? Is this theoretical or does it actually happen? A lot of times it’s just scary stuff designed to get you to keep consuming media (so they can show you more advertising). Articles and news clips reporting that some scientist somewhere found germs on \* (where \* is usually some surface in your home) often don’t mention what kind of germs they are, how much of it there is, or what their presence means for your risk of actually getting sick. Anyone wondering if they’re doing things right need only look at their own track record of infection. I probably violate some of the more rigorous rules of household sanitation and in-public-places hygiene that are recommended by talking heads in the media - examples, I probably don’t swap out the sponge near my kitchen sink as often as I should, and I’m sure I don’t take the full recommended twenty seconds to wash my hands…but I really don’t get sick very often. OTOH, I also do some things that most people don’t do, like washing my hands before eating a restaurant, and using a sanitizing wipe or two to wipe down all the touch points around me when I sit down in an airplane (tray table, seatback, seatbelt buckle, armrests, etc). ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/6 "2024-01-02T20:25:46Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Even when such are mentioned, the statistical risks are never discussed. What can you catch from a public toilet seat? From a dirty sink? From going weeks without washing your hair? What _exactly_? Is this theoretical or does it actually happen? I think a lot of it is just hysteria about the generic “getting sick” without diving much into the “from what?” Of course, the average person isn’t going to sit on a dirty or wet toilet seat, and the risk from sitting on a clean and dry one is probably very small, but who wants to trust ANY public toilet seat that is used when someone, some stranger, did their gross bodily functions while sitting on it?! Even when one of those thin “ass gasket” things is provided. AIUI, women’s public restrooms fall victim to this fear more than mens’ due to “hovering” (which makes aiming more of a challenge). You probably are more at risk of catching some pathogen from your kitchen sponge than from sitting and doing your business on a public toilet. As for personal hygiene, if you live a solitary life, only your own discomfort is at risk (smelly, itchy, or whatever), but if you spend any time around others, I think social norms dictate how smelly and unkempt-looking you are allowed to be, moreso than concern about cleanliness and germs. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/7 "2024-01-02T20:29:50Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I think social norms dictate Fuck Norm. IDGAF how social he is. He ain’t dictating to me. Now, the voice of my dear departed germophobe Japanese mother echoing in my memory’s ear… that completely dictates. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/8 "2024-01-02T20:36:47Z")
I believe I once offered this anecdote on a similar thread – without comment 😉 > **[‘World’s dirtiest man’ dies in Iran at 94 a few months after first wash](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/25/worlds-dirtiest-man-dies-in-iran-at-94-a-few-months-after-first-wash)** > > ‘Amou Haji’, who did not bathe for half a century, reportedly ate roadkill and smoked pipe filled with animal excrement ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/9 "2024-01-02T20:40:49Z")
If you’re dirty, stinky and offensive you get the added benefit no one will get close enough to breath on you. Win-win. But if you’re so dirty you don’t notice skin rashes you’ve scratched with filthy fingernails and caused bacterial infections. Or skin cancers that have gotten outta hand. Then you have to face the dreaded clinic. Where we all know _all_ the worst germs are. Your virgin immune system will attack you allowing every sickness and pestilence known to man to to grab ahold. Oh, god… I need to shower. Excuse me. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/10 "2024-01-02T20:41:13Z")
ETA: Overall I agree with the trust of @snowthx post 4 above. My reply got misdirected as a generic thread reply by accident. Ref this snip: > [@snowthx](#): > > but who wants to trust ANY public toilet seat that is used when someone, some stranger, did their gross bodily functions while sitting on it?! But that (as you indirectly suggest) is purely an appeal to overweening squicky disgust, not a rational appeal to a risk-based approach to real health. My new wife’s cleanliness standards are about 10x what mine were. To zero benefit to me (and I _believe_ zero benefit to her), but clearly to massive benefit of the manufacturers of the many expensive branded products she consumes with wild abandon in a desire to live in a squick-free world. Each one of which she learned of after their advertising told her of something new to be squicked about. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/11 "2024-01-02T20:43:16Z")
I recently learned that for destroying norovirus on surfaces requires bleach and most wipes and hand sanitizers are ineffective at penetrating the virus. I’d still wipe down surfaces but a.so keep hands away from one’s mouth nose eyes etc. Those germs can remain on surfaces up to two weeks, super gross. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/12 "2024-01-02T20:49:18Z")
I like your wife. The cleaning aisle is my favorite in a store. 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/13 "2024-01-02T20:54:09Z")
My question (which so far has indeed garnered the expected but irrelevant ewwww gross! Germs!! responses) is that **WHAT IS IT EXACTLY** do you imagine will happen to you if you sit on a wet toilet seat or don’t wash your mouth out with patented mouth sanitizer or whatever? I want to know. My hypothesis is that you have no idea what you are trying to prevent with these fearful devotions, in terms of diagnosable illness, but rather that you are fearful of generalized contamination, a cultural rather than reality-based fear, the same source of fear that isolates women in menstrual huts, makes lepers ring bells to warn of their arrival, and condemns whole castes to take on the burden of ‘contaminating’ labor. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/14 "2024-01-02T20:56:47Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > But if you’re so dirty you don’t notice skin rashes you’ve scratched with filthy fingernails and caused bacterial infections. Or skin cancers that have gotten outta hand. Then you have to face the dreaded clinic. Where we all know _all_ the worst germs are. Your virgin immune system will attack you allowing every sickness and pestilence known to man to to grab ahold. Being dirty doesn’t mean you are numb to your own body. And anyway that’s not how immune systems work, really. Or clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/15 "2024-01-02T20:56:51Z")
I don’t think it’s possible to know exactly what you _could_ catch without knowing if the bodily fluid dispenser had a transferrable disease. Any thing catchy is possible. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/16 "2024-01-02T20:57:07Z")
But norovirus germs are gross! And highly transmissible. Vomiting and diarrhea is no picnic. But it’s not going to appear without a host so that’s something, on a plane or from a grocery cart or at the movies yes it’s possible to pick it up. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/17 "2024-01-02T21:01:28Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My new wife’s cleanliness standards are about 10x what mine were. To zero benefit to me (and I _believe_ zero benefit to her), but clearly to massive benefit of the manufacturers of the many expensive branded products she consumes with wild abandon in a desire to live in a squick-free world. Each one of which she learned of after their advertising told her of something new to be squicked about. I bought one of those branded products for a specific cleaning purpose. It’s labeled as “toilet bowl disinfectant.” Not sure who thinks their toilet bowl _needs_ to be disinfected. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/18 "2024-01-02T21:02:08Z")
Dirt may hide a raised rash. You innocently scratch. Driving dirt into it. Infection could happen. And believe me doctors offices are virus laden. Especially the waiting room you spend long minutes in. Sick people are not always aware they’re coughing without covering their mouths. Or if they use their hand then they touch many surfaces. The pen you sign in with totally freaks me out. (I’m a bit of a germaphobe, no …I’m a serious germaphobe. I kinda have to be) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/19 "2024-01-02T21:14:10Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > doctors offices are virus laden It’s so prevalent that there’s a special word for it. > **[Hospital-acquired infection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital-acquired_infection)** > > A hospital-acquired infection, also known as a nosocomial infection (from the Greek nosokomeion, meaning "hospital"), is an infection that is acquired in a hospital or other healthcare facility. To emphasize both hospital and nonhospital settings, it is sometimes instead called a healthcare-associated infection. Such an infection can be acquired in hospital, nursing home, rehabilitation facility, outpatient clinic, diagnostic laboratory or other clinical settings. A number of dynamic proces Durin... A health care facility is where you go to expose yourself to everyone else’s pathogens. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505/20 "2024-01-02T21:45:20Z")
Anyway, I don’t have to imagine what I could catch from someone’s nasty leavings or innocent coughed out viruses. I _know_ what would happen to me. In my compromised health situation I could die from just the wrong infection or virus. So I’m careful. I mask up, distance and sanitize/wash often. Stay out of public places as much as possible. I have to visit the dialysis clinic 3 times a week and other hospitals and clinics regularly. Not avoidable, I watch what they do. I clean my house and insist on cleanliness from family and visitors. I did this before the pandemic, during and now. If the rest of the world would practice even a fourth of what I do we would be a healthier population. I totally believe a virus will end this world sooner or later. If I’m an alarmist, so be it. IMO. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleanliness/995505.md?page=2)