# Clearly Better: A thread on superiority in ELEMENTARY systems of notation, nomenclature, etc **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2023, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056 "2023-11-13T06:14:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/41 "2023-11-15T00:46:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > where one musician calls that note “A” while the other calls it “B flat”. In piping, we don’t have notations for sharps and flats. The steps between the notes are unique to GHB, so no need to try to approximate the classic scale. Which indicates that there is no right answer to musical notation. If I recall correctly, classic Indian music uses a scale with quarter tones. That’s one of the reasons that non-fretted western instruments play well with Indian instruments and music. I’ve got a couple of albums of duets between Shankar and Menuhin. ---
**Author:** ![Guapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@Guapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guapo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/42 "2023-11-15T08:07:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Many thermostats just let you set the temperature in whole degrees, and I’ve never heard anyone complain and wish they could set it to 20.5 or whatever. I’m dubious that people really are that sensitive. My ex could tell the difference between the thermostat set at 71 degrees F vs 72 ---
**Author:** ![Kzbre5m](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f08c70/32.png) [@Kzbre5m](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kzbre5m)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/43 "2023-11-15T11:21:48Z")
_(Step away for a day, and I get all these comments!)_ Let me emphasize the original premise here about systems of convention, not what I may be allowed to do. I was comparing and contrasting the OP’s premise of a base 10 unit of measurements as superior to a fractional measurement system, yet in musical note terminology mentioning a fractional system of notation. To that I suggest the division of the octave by 12. If metric (base 10) measurement is superior, why not metric musical notations? The answers given here mostly are of convenience and tradition. Which of course brings up the question of why not keep fractional _measurements_ as convenience and tradition. A rhetorical question, mind you. Please. I know the arguments well enough. Sorry for the side-track. > **Side story about the future of measuring** > > High school robotics students, used to metal shop construction, are building a wood shelf, and measure a length as “16 point seven five [inches]”, using a feet-and-inches (fractional) tape measure. “16 and three-quarters?” I ask. “16 point seven five” firmly answered. I didn’t push the issue. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > May I suggest you check out the music of Harry Partch. Depending on your age and taste in music, you may have already heard some of it without realizing it. I may have [this album](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrJDdt5OS_Y) somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/44 "2023-11-15T12:42:36Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Also, there are various alternative notations possible: > [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fe/70/e5/fe70e5879dda9dcdc3216cf023e2e7ad.gif](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fe/70/e5/fe70e5879dda9dcdc3216cf023e2e7ad.gif) **Xenakis**? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If I recall correctly, classic Indian music uses a scale with quarter tones. That’s one of the reasons that non-fretted western instruments play well with Indian instruments and music. I’ve got a couple of albums of duets between Shankar and Menuhin. Especially since Menuhin had a habit of hitting quarter tones no matter what type of music he played… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/45 "2023-11-15T13:36:50Z")
> [@Kzbre5m](#): > > I may have [this album](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrJDdt5OS_Y) somewhere. A friend of mine in college was listening to Partch’s _Barstow_ one day. It’s divided into numbered sections, and each one has a short musical intro: _Dee de-de-de Dee de-de-de Dee de-de-de Dee dee dee dee “Number 3”_ There was something familiar about it. I finally figured out where I’d heard it before. Dr. Demento used it in the Funny Five countdown at the end of his show. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/46 "2023-11-15T13:49:01Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > **Xenakis**? 🙂 > [@Moonrise](#): > > Especially since Menuhin had a habit of hitting quarter tones no matter what type of music he played… It’s not so much that Indian, and certain other Eastern, music uses quarter tones (though it sometimes does), it’s that a scale can be constructed using natural number ratios relative to a tonic, so the pitches do not line up with exactly equal divisions of an octave. This type of just intonation works great for a raga or maqam where you do not have to modulate to distant keys. If a scale is to be constructed by picking notes from a gamut of equal divisions of an octave, you will need a lot more than 12: for example 24, 53, or 72 depending on what theory you follow, in order to approximate the desired melodic intervals. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/47 "2023-11-15T14:04:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Euro coin denominations \>\> dollar coin denominations. Actually I’m accepting argument on this one, though I still support this ranking. After looking up the Euro denominations, they both suck. Coins should not go below 10 cents, and should have a coin greater than 2 dollar/euro. You should have 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1, 2, and 5. ---
**Author:** ![Guapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@Guapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guapo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/48 "2023-11-15T15:14:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > After looking up the Euro denominations, they both suck. Coins should not go below 10 cents, and should have a coin greater than 2 dollar/euro. You should have 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1, 2, and 5. If you have no need for currency less than 0.10, why not just revalue the currency by 1/10? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/49 "2023-11-15T16:01:58Z")
Numeral 7 and letter Z with a crossbar on the diagonal stroke \>\>\> 7 and Z without them. Numeral 1 with a very small serif at the top \>\>\> either the American version with no serif, or the European version with a huge serif than might be mistaken for an American 7. Open-top numeral 4 \>\>\> pointy-top 4. Numeral 0 that is easily distinguishable from the letter O. Diagonal slash, horizontal crossbar, dot in the center, I don’t care. Skinny oval versus fat circle is not an adequate distinction. Country that controls inflation properly \>\>\> country that thinks pennies are useless. [Holocene calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_calendar) \>\>\> the BC/AD aka BCE/CE mess. Although I would consider just using the Holocene to replace the BC aka BCE dates. I would personally prefer the [World Calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Calendar) to the Gregorian, but I don’t want to fight with the religious zealots who insist on a 7-day weekly cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/50 "2023-11-15T16:44:29Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > If you have no need for currency less than 0.10, why not just revalue the currency by 1/10? And do you want to deal with all the pensioners and holders of bank accounts who suddenly find that their holdings have dropped by 90%? And all the merchants and other service providers who have to re-tool their prices? And the stock exchanges who have to re-value all stocks, bonds, derivatives, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/51 "2023-11-15T16:53:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not purely cultural, though, is the point. There are mathematical reasons for the 12-note octave. There are other mathematical arrangements that also work, and some cultures have chosen those, but no human musical tradition would ever settle on 10 even-tempered steps, or 15: If you’re going to have about that many, it’s going to be 12. Right, as I said, in some ways it’s a ‘least worst’ approximation to most of the harmonic intervals we are used to considering as consonant. And there does seem to be at least some physics basis for that, simple frequency ratios etc, not totally a matter of convention. Or is it? I suppose as an exercise one could try creating a musical piece using a 10-step division: easy enough with synth technology. It would probably sound very dissonant to western ears. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/52 "2023-11-15T17:00:58Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > why not just revalue the currency You can create a ‘new dollar’ or ‘new euro’ that is 10x as valuable, but you’d have to remake ALL of the coins and bills in circulation. Killing the worthless coins doesn’t affect any of the existing currency, and requires no change to bank accounts or other non-currency items. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/53 "2023-11-15T17:02:45Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > If you have no need for currency less than 0.10, why not just revalue the currency by 1/10? Things like this have happened quite commonly in history. I remember when the UK currency went decimal: there was widespread suspicion that it was a trick to increase prices by ‘rounding up’… ---
**Author:** ![Guapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@Guapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guapo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/54 "2023-11-15T17:54:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And do you want to deal with all the pensioners and holders of bank accounts who suddenly find that their holdings have dropped by 90%? > > And all the merchants and other service providers who have to re-tool their prices? > > And the stock exchanges who have to re-value all stocks, bonds, derivatives, etc.? No, of course not. You would create a “new currency” that is worth 10x the previous one. The existing currency could be exchanged for the new. This has happened many times in many places as inflation made the old currency untenable. It just seems silly to have your smallest unit of currency 10 something. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/55 "2023-11-15T17:59:32Z")
Arabic numeral system \>\> Roman numeral system International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) \>\> the hodgepodge of different systems used by various dictionary publishers ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/56 "2023-11-15T18:07:13Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > International Phonetic Alphabet That’s an interesting question. Does the IPA cover ALL the vocal sounds used by human speakers of various languages? I’m not a linguist, but it seems to me that it might have been compiled from a rather limited subset? ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/57 "2023-11-15T18:37:00Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > That’s an interesting question. Does the IPA cover ALL the vocal sounds used by human speakers of various languages? I’m not a linguist, but it seems to me that it might have been compiled from a rather limited subset? Covering all the vocal sounds in all of the world’s languages certainly is the ambition of the IPA. But since we’re dealing with continuous and not discrete data, an amount of “rounding” (pun intended) is done. And if you really want to get granular, no two native speakers of a given language pronounce its phonemes in exactly the same way. Still, while the IPA could perhaps be improved, it’s much better than all the traditional spelling systems that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/58 "2023-11-15T19:03:27Z")
The principle can be generally observed that monosyllabic nomenclature is preferable in interpersonal communications as a method of encouraging brevity. Short words are good. So inches are better than centimeters, yards are better than meters, miles are better than kilometers, pounds are better than kilograms, teaspoons are better than milliliters, and quarts are better than liters. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/59 "2023-11-15T19:12:51Z")
And Chinese \> English ! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056/60 "2023-11-15T19:17:17Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > And do you want to deal with all the pensioners and holders of bank accounts who suddenly find that their holdings have dropped by 90%? > > > > And all the merchants and other service providers who have to re-tool their prices? > > > > And the stock exchanges who have to re-value all stocks, bonds, derivatives, etc.? > > No, of course not. You would create a “new currency” that is worth 10x the previous one. The existing currency could be exchanged for the new. This has happened many times in many places as inflation made the old currency untenable. It just seems silly to have your smallest unit of currency 10 something. This went I different direction than I expected. I was thinking of switching from dollar-denominated money to dime-denominated money. That way we can get rid of the annoying decimals in our currency numbers. It seems silly to use fractional units of currency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clearly-better-a-thread-on-superiority-in-elementary-systems-of-notation-nomenclature-etc/993056.md?page=4)