# CLee, a word (or 500). AKA - the next JayDub pile on thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892 "2013-10-10T17:37:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/81 "2013-10-10T23:00:39Z")
This reminds me of the Billy Meier thread. Maybe we could those guys (or guy, I thought I smelled socks in the Meier thread) in a big glass jar with Uber, and shake it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/82 "2013-10-10T23:00:46Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Speak on then. Out with your bombshell revelation. I’m all eyes. [I always am.](http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/13-5.htm) Answer these three questions - 1.) What is the WT’s principle message? 2.) What makes the WT “unique” compared to the other religions in this regard? 3.) How do you reconcile that with the clear and concise warning and directive as stated at Luke 21:8? Answers - 1.)The time is at hand, we are in the “last days” [QUOTE=[http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article\_04.htm](http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_04.htm)] **The Good News They Want You to Hear** WHEN Jesus was on earth, his disciples came to him and asked: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” He replied that there would be wars involving many nations, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, an increasing of lawlessness, false religious teachers misleading many, a hatred and persecution of his true followers, and a cooling off of the love of righteousness in many people. When these things would start to happen, it would indicate that Christ was invisibly present and that the heavenly Kingdom was at hand. This would be news—good news! So Jesus added these words as a part of the sign: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” [/QUOTE] (Reading the rest of this ‘article’ lays out how we are in the end times ) [QUOTE=[http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060915/article\_02.htm](http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060915/article_02.htm)] There is no doubt about it. The end of Satan’s system is close at hand. Those who ignore the evidence that we are living in the last days will be caught off guard when the end comes. [/QUOTE] 2.) That they are ‘Gods Chosen Channel’, indeed, they are his “Ambassadors” [QUOTE=The Watch Tower 1917 January 15 p.22] The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as his channel through which to make known the glad tidings. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Watchtower 1967 October 1 p.587] Finding Freedom with Jehovah’s Visible Organization Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.\*\* For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.\*\* [/QUOTE] [QUOTE= Watchtower 1973 pg 401] WHY APPRECIATE GOD’S ORGANIZATION 3 For one thing, Jesus’ anointed followers, who are part of Jehovah’s earthly organization, are “ambassadors substituting for Christ.” Their companions with earthly hopes also serve the interests of the Kingdom. (2Cor. 5:20) Mind you, they are not ambassadors and envoys of a mere human government and of sinful rulers. They represent Jehovah, his exalted spirit king Jesus Christ and the mighty kingdom of God. What an inestimable privilege!\*\* Of course, to serve and praise the Universal Sovereign, one must associate with the organization of Jehovah’s Christian witnesses.\*\* 4 Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God’s holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God’s people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: “For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1Cor. 2:10) Jesus Christ praised his heavenly Father for ‘hiding such things from the wise and intellectual ones but revealing them to babes.’ (Matt. 11:25) **How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the “deep things of God** ”! [/QUOTE] [QUOTE= You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255] Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats.\*\* And there will be only one organization—God’s visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching “great tribulation.” It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…\*\* [/QUOTE] 3.) [QUOTE=Jesus @ Luke 21:8] He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’\*\* Do not follow them.\*\* [/QUOTE] In Context - the entire parable is about not being concerned if the ‘end is near’ or not - that that was not the concern that needed to be dealt with. To Summarize - Since it’s inception, the Jehovah’s Witnesses (previously Bible Students under ‘Pastor’ Russel have declared that the ‘Time of the end is near’ and that only that organization had ‘special’ knowledge in this regard - repeatedly they have pointed to ‘end dates’ and ‘times’ and proofs that they are the ‘chosen org’. In fact, the first set of books published and sold by them the "Studies in Scripture’ one book was specifically titled “The Time is at Hand” and it was full of proofs about how we were in the last days, etc. They continue these teachings to this day - Now - as a ‘Jehovah’s Witness’ - how do \*\*you \*\*- reconcile your beliefs in light of this clear and concise teaching from Christ himself? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/83 "2013-10-10T23:20:02Z")
Obviously, this is the next JW pile-on thread. I have a sneaking suspicion that any thread opened on that subject in this MB will be a pile-on. Not even sure why JWs would want to post here on their religion unless they just love taking a beating. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/84 "2013-10-10T23:21:29Z")
Of course they do. Otherwise they wouldn’t behave that way. They all have martyr complexes a mile wide. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/85 "2013-10-10T23:26:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Obviously, this is the next JW pile-on thread. I have a sneaking suspicion that any thread opened on that subject in this MB will be a pile-on. Not even sure why JWs would want to post here on their religion unless they just love taking a beating. Never underestimate the oblivion of the self-righteous. Seriously, the JWs are guilty of some horrendous actions, some of which would be rightfully charged as crimes under any other heading. We protect our children from alcohol, violence, poison, and we don’t let children die for lack of a simple medical procedure. Except the JWs. They threaten kids with total isolation if they deviate from the practice and they let injured or sick kids die for a preposterously stupid reason. They practice social terrorism, why should we be tolerant and kind to the unkind and intolerant? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/86 "2013-10-10T23:35:06Z")
Mockery is not persecution. Persecution are the pograms my grandmother endured in her youth. Persecution is my mom’s best friend and the tattoo on her arm and all her relatives who were burned to ashes just because they were Jewish. No one is entitled to demand their dumber ideas cannot be ridiculed in the marketplace of ideas. If they are subject to such mockery then perhaps it is time to rethink them. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/87 "2013-10-10T23:38:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Mockery is not persecution. Persecution are the pograms my grandmother endured in her youth. Persecution is my mom’s best friend and the tattoo on her arm and all her relatives who were burned to ashes just because they were Jewish. > > No one is entitled to demand their dumber ideas cannot be ridiculed in the marketplace of ideas. If they are subject to such mockery then perhaps it is time to rethink them. No kidding. How is there even room for Christ on that cross? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/88 "2013-10-10T23:40:36Z")
Not that I 'm not enjoying the bashing of someone who has it coming, but **jsgoddess** what’s the deal with criticizing an organization because it only pays taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@Gullible\_s\_Travels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gullible_s_Travels)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/89 "2013-10-10T23:43:38Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > And I imagine I can expect the same level of participation from you as I’ve seen here? > > Why would I engage in conversation with someone who repeatedly ascribes untrue/disrespectful motives to me, and will not hear anything that says otherwise? > > How could I possibly bother you with the facts when your mind is made up? You tell me **CLee** , would offering you something you already feel is vile, putrid, horrific garbage, really get me anywhere? > > I’ll certainly engage in conversation with someone who is humble enough to accept that the views they hold just might be wrong. Someone who will set aside their preconceptions long enough to absorb a competing thought. > > I take every one of your comments seriously, and I make sure that I understand them before responding. Re: **jsgoddess** ’s poorly worded statement - she (and others) reworded it so that it was clearer. It turned out to be nothing more than a “Nuh-uh! You’re a dummy, because I only read the parts that make you look bad!” > > I’ve tried to turn this around for you, and help you see the other side, and you still refuse to see things from the point of view of the person against whom you are arguing. I see your points, and I’ve addressed them, in the OP of this thread, yet you completely ignored it in favor of repeating yourself again. > > You are deliberately describing an untrue perspective/position that you erroneously believe Witnesses in general hold. You then attack that untrue position. > > You are creating a very good example of a straw-man argument. You will have many supporters though, as you do here, because it’s the popular position to take. Religion is derided on this forum, and many others. The members are dissected, and when we cry foul, more derision is heaped. “There’s no hatred here, what on Earth do you mean? Stop crying persecution, it’s so untrue! You can’t prove that it’s happening.” Meanwhile, you continue to call for the eradication of my faith, on baseless incorrect grounds. And then you deny it is happening. We’re children murderers, we’re civil mooches, we’re predators of the elderly, blah blah blah. > > Take your anger, and recognize it for what it is. Fear that a way of living could possibly instill in it’s followers the level of devotion and faith that you can’t hardly muster in your own life. The continued existence (and growth even) of the JW’s gives plausibility to the notion that your beliefs regarding us are wrong, and that we may be living happier BECAUSE of our faith in God. BECAUSE of our following the directions of a higher power. BECAUSE of our submission to the moral authority of another. > > Go to your local Kingdom Hall and see how many miserable, broken families and poor lonely senile idiots you see. Don’t try to engage me in a fight about something you’ve never even experienced for yourself. > > **I’m willing to wager that you’re so scared of having your mind changed, so scared of wasting the time you’d rather spend masturbating in front of the tv while texting your friends and lovers about the forbidden music that the JW’s clearly run in fear of (your words, from your [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16729232&postcount=165)) , that you wouldn’t even give a few month’s worth of weekends to coming to our sunday meetings. Heaven forbid it! You might get brainwashed! Then you’d have to give up your favorite things! Heavens NO!!!** > > Or maybe it’s fear of man, that the opinion your friends and family hold of you might deteriorate, because you’re associating with “them”! Don’t let the cooties touch you. It’s contagious. :rolleyes: > > I’ve been to mass, I’ve been to pentecostal sermons (for years), I’ve been to synagogue, I’ve been around. You can’t play the you-first card there. > > Seriously **CLee** , if you lived near enough to me, and you were willing (which I doubt) I’d take you out to breakfast, show you what this terrible person you’ve made me out to be really looks like, and offer to bring you to whatever Kingdom Hall was closest to you and show you exactly the type of people you’re attributing these negative qualities to. PM me, don’t give you address of course, because you don’t want me to have swarms of JW’s drop by and love-bomb your house, but let me know what part of the world you live in. I probably can get in touch with a friend nearby. > > I stand to gain NOTHING from that, or any other similar endeavor. I’m willing to do it because I believe this world is a better place with more open conversation, not less. Screw going to the GD forum and wasting my time there - you haven’t been here long enough to know the track record that “witnessing” has there. What on earth? Do you even realise how offensive this is? Do you really wonder why people are reacting the way they are? Are you humble enough to accept that possibly your views may be wrong? Do you truly try to see things from the other side? Do you really think that people are angry because perhaps you have the truth? Do you really think you’re living happier? You don’t seem at all happy to me… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/90 "2013-10-10T23:45:38Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Not that I 'm not enjoying the bashing of someone who has it coming, but **jsgoddess** what’s the deal with criticizing an organization because it only pays taxes? I don’t think I did. I commented that his response to CLee was hilarious in that he kept saying she was misrepresenting his organization then agreeing with everything she was saying. He agrees with every single one of her points, says they are true, then seems to be claiming that she’s not allowed to say them because… well, that’s where the mystery comes in. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/91 "2013-10-11T00:00:12Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Not that I 'm not enjoying the bashing of someone who has it coming, but **jsgoddess** what’s the deal with criticizing an organization because it only pays taxes? I’m not criticizing Uber for that. JWs shun all forms of civil service, but partake of every bit of it. They refuse to serve in law enforcement or dispatch, but damn sure called for help when that jerk shot at them, and they’ll rejoice in Kingdom Halls the world over when that guy is prosecuted though they refuse to serve on juries or work in jails. They refuse to elect the officials who approved their right to sell their beliefs despite no soliciting signs. They take their pitch to countries which are politically stable thanks to the intervention or presence of our military but they refuse to serve. They have no problem utilizing the services they proudly refuse to work for and take advantage of the freedoms they refuse to fight for, protect, or even stinkin’ vote for. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/92 "2013-10-11T01:34:16Z")
I suppose one might say that those are all freedoms that our armed forces have fought for. It may seem paradoxical, but the freedom not to enlist in the military is a real and meaningful freedom, and we should be glad that we have it. Would we really be more free if we lived in a nation where enlistment was mandatory, or was a pre-requisite for the enjoyment of other freedoms? Many philosophers condemn pacifists, but what is the alternative? A society that does not tolerate pacifists would be difficult to admire. If they pay their taxes and don’t break the laws…well, that’s the dead level minimum to be a good citizen. It isn’t admirable. But it isn’t despicable either. (Not providing life-saving transfusions to their kids – that’s fucking despicable.) ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/93 "2013-10-11T01:44:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I suppose one might say that those are all freedoms that our armed forces have fought for. It may seem paradoxical, but the freedom not to enlist in the military is a real and meaningful freedom, and we should be glad that we have it. Would we really be more free if we lived in a nation where enlistment was mandatory, or was a pre-requisite for the enjoyment of other freedoms? > > Many philosophers condemn pacifists, but what is the alternative? A society that does not tolerate pacifists would be difficult to admire. > > If they pay their taxes and don’t break the laws…well, that’s the dead level minimum to be a good citizen. It isn’t admirable. But it isn’t despicable either. > > (Not providing life-saving transfusions to their kids – that’s fucking despicable.) I don’t serve in the military, either, nor do I plan to. But I don’t claim those agents are in Satan’s employ, then utilize the very services Satan’s supposed officers provide. Since Witnesses do call the police when they’ve been shot at, and presumably will testify against the shooter in court, then they, too, are in Satan’s service, aren’t they? It’s convenient how they have no moral qualms about taking advantage of those Satan managed services, they just won’t perform any of those tasks themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/94 "2013-10-11T01:56:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Mockery is not persecution. Persecution are the pograms my grandmother endured in her youth. Persecution is my mom’s best friend and the tattoo on her arm and all her relatives who were burned to ashes just because they were Jewish. > > No one is entitled to demand their dumber ideas cannot be ridiculed in the marketplace of ideas. If they are subject to such mockery then perhaps it is time to rethink them. For what it’s worth, it appears that Jehovah’s Witnesses [were](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany) heavily persecuted in Nazi Germany. There weren’t very many of them to begin with, but a large proportion were sent to the camps. None of this changes the fact that it is a hideous, authoritarian organization. But JWs did in fact endure a good measure of persecution and they died for their beliefs. Now in the US, they made nearly a billion dollars in revenue. They’re getting mocked all the way to the bank. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/95 "2013-10-11T02:40:10Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > I don’t serve in the military, either, nor do I plan to. But I don’t claim those agents are in Satan’s employ, then utilize the very services Satan’s supposed officers provide. Since Witnesses do call the police when they’ve been shot at, and presumably will testify against the shooter in court, then they, too, are in Satan’s service, aren’t they? It’s convenient how they have no moral qualms about taking advantage of those Satan managed services, they just won’t perform any of those tasks themselves. Well, it makes them jerks, but that, too, is a valuable freedom we enjoy in this country. You could even argue it’s immoral, and I don’t know if I’d disagree. But even immorality is a freedom that has been hard-fought-for and hard-won in this country. (Hooray for the repeal of prohibition!) But…I definitely intend to exercise another hard-won right, and call them rude names for their intolerant behaviors and most especially for their child-killing. Maybe that makes me a jerk, too – hard to say with invective. Still, it’s a right I wouldn’t give up easily! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/96 "2013-10-11T02:40:28Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > For what it’s worth, it appears that Jehovah’s Witnesses [were](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany) heavily persecuted in Nazi Germany. There weren’t very many of them to begin with, but a large proportion were sent to the camps. > > None of this changes the fact that it is a hideous, authoritarian organization. But JWs did in fact endure a good measure of persecution and they died for their beliefs. > > Now in the US, they made nearly a billion dollars in revenue. They’re getting mocked all the way to the bank. Might surprise many that the JW sent many a friendly letter to Hitler and company - even published there ‘support’ for Germany/Nazi in the 34 yearbook - granted, most of this was prior to the start of WW2 and the JW were definitely sent to the camps along with others - but the language in the letters is ‘not’ pacifist [QUOTE=Early Watchtower Publications Under Rutherford] “Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position” The Golden Age 1927 Feb 23 p.343 “Jews [are] no longer important to God. … the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan’s organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved.” Vindication - Book II (1932) pp.257,258 [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rutherford, Letter to Hitler, 1933] The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator. … The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1934 Yearbook of the Jehovah’s Witnesses] **Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles,** and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart. [/QUOTE] See - [Rutherford and the Watchtower's support of Hitler](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php) for scans of the letters and publications - along with the ‘denial’ from the Watchtower. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/97 "2013-10-11T04:35:09Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > For what it’s worth, it appears that Jehovah’s Witnesses [were](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany) heavily persecuted in Nazi Germany. There weren’t very many of them to begin with, but a large proportion were sent to the camps. Indeed, this isn’t something you want to hang your hat on. Instead of a yellow star, Jehovah’s Witnesses got to wear a purple triangle, were sent to the same concentration and death camps, and were burned to ashes for their beliefs. Make of it what you will, but unlike Jews, Slavs, Roma, etc who were considered racial enemies by the Nazis and were going to be murdered if they were practicing Jews or not, JW could avoid the camps by renouncing their faith. Very, very few did. From the Jewish Virtual Library: [Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust: Jehovah’s Witnesses](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jehovah.html): > [@](#): > > Initially, Jehovah’s Witnesses attempted to fend off Nazi attacks by issuing a letter to the government in October 1934, explaining their religious beliefs and political neutrality. This declaration failed to convince the Nazi regime of the group’s harmlessness. For defying the ban on their activities, many Witnesses were arrested and sent to prisons and concentration camps. They lost their jobs as civil servants or employees in private industry and their unemployment, social welfare, and pension benefits. > > From 1935 onward, Jehovah’s Witnesses faced a Nazi campaign of nearly total persecution. On April 1, 1935, the group was banned nationally by law. The same year, Germany reintroduced compulsory military service. For refusing to be drafted or perform war–related work, and for continuing to meet, Jehovah’s Witnesses were arrested and incarcerated in prisons and concentration camps. In 1936 some 400 Jehovah’s Witnesses were imprisoned at Sachsenhausen concentration camp. > … > > In response to Nazi efforts to destroy them, the worldwide Jehovah’s Witness organization became a center of spiritual resistance against the Nazis. An international convention of Witnesses, held in Lucerne, Switzerland, in September 1936, issued a resolution condemning the entire Nazi regime. In this text and other literature brought into Germany, writers broadly indicted the Third Reich. Articles strongly denounced the persecution of German Jews, Nazi “savagery” toward Communists, the remilitarization of Germany, the Nazification of schools and universities, Nazi propaganda, and the regime’s assault on mainstream churches. > … > > In the Nazi years, about 10,000 Witnesses, most of them of German nationality, were imprisoned in concentration camps. After 1939, small numbers of Witnesses from Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Norway, and Poland (some of them refugees from Germany) were arrested and deported to Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Ravensbrück, Auschwitz, Mauthausen, and other concentration camps. An estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons. More than 200 men were tried by the German War Court and executed for refusing military service. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/98 "2013-10-11T04:45:13Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Indeed, this isn’t something you want to hang your hat on. Instead of a yellow star, Jehovah’s Witnesses got to wear a purple triangle, were sent to the same concentration and death camps, and were burned to ashes for their beliefs. Make of it what you will, but unlike Jews, Slavs, Roma, etc who were considered racial enemies by the Nazis and were going to be murdered if they were practicing Jews or not, JW could avoid the camps by renouncing their faith. Very, very few did. From the Jewish Virtual Library: [Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust: > Jehovah’s Witnesses](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jehovah.html): nm - I do not have info on the letters from 36 - but the letters from the prior years and in 34 do not match that assertion in the middle paragraph and I would say that the first paragraph is not correct either - not much neutrality when the letter says “we support you”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/99 "2013-10-11T07:17:52Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Are you reading them, or simply assuming the content based on a few choice keywords here and there? I am reading them, more’s the pity. You’re an extraordinarily poor spokesman for your religion. I mean, we get a lot of overheated atheists posting around here, posting all sorts of wild-eyed nonsense. Mostly I just ignore them, and I’d probably have written off **CLee** as one of them. Except you tried to rebut her claims, and posted some incredibly heinous shit. I mean, shunning? That’s not the sort of practice you can defend, and still consider yourself a good person. And then you had the gall to turn around and post that revoltingly insincere “apology” to **Dr. Drake**? Yeah, sorry, but from what I’ve seen here, you’re kind of a shitty person. And you’ve been presenting yourself as someone who’s more worldly and open minded than the average JW? Jesus Christ, the rest of you must be simply _awful_. Honestly, if you want to help out your faith, the single best thing you could do right now is shut up about it. Because the more you try to justify it, the more horrible you make it sound. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892/100 "2013-10-11T07:18:57Z")
That being said… > [@Kenm](#): > > And then go fuck yourself. [Moderating] **Kenm** , telling other posters to go fuck themselves is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clee-a-word-or-500-aka-the-next-jaydub-pile-on-thread/670892.md?page=6)