# Clemency denied for Tookie **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303 "2005-12-12T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/41 "2005-12-13T14:23:42Z")
> [@beckwall](#): > > Countries that engage in the death penalty - > > 1 **Kuwait** > 2 China > 3 **Iran** > 4 Singapore > 5 \*\*Saudi Arabia \*\* > 6 Vietnam > 7 Belarus > 8 Yemen > 9 United States > 10 **Pakistan** > 11 Egypt > 12 Bangladesh > > We’re among good friends, it seems. USA, pride of western civilization. Hitler built the autobahn, but I’m not giving up my freeways. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/42 "2005-12-13T14:33:41Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > A governor shouldn’t step in and inject personal opinion or bias. His job is to be sure that those who did the prosecuting and those who will carry out the sentence have everything straight and everything is in order. A governer’s clemency more importantly rely’s on the condemned’s lawyers than their PR firm. You state this categorically as if it were true. If some governor wants to define his role in this limited way, then that’s between him and the electorate. But just because some governors may feel this way, that doesn’t mean that governors who feel differently are overstepping their bounds. They aren’t. (See what I did there?) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/43 "2005-12-13T14:36:03Z")
> [@kezami](#): > > Williams must not have thought much of his victims either or they would be alive today. Wow, the trenchant insights just keep on coming, huh? The state is nothing but a construct of its citizens. Ergo, if a state has the death penalty, its citizens are killers. You would be Williams; I would be better than him. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/44 "2005-12-13T15:04:17Z")
Look, I’m all for a blanket banning of the death penalty. I don’t think our judicial system is perfect enough to include such an irrevocable penalty. That said, Tookie Williams is one of the most contempable human being in this country. He’s not sorry and he has provided absolutely no concrete assistance to law enforcement in taking down the gang structure that he created and has brought untold horrors and destruction on thousands of communities, not only in California, but across the country. He doesn’t deserve clemency and I’m glad he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/45 "2005-12-13T15:30:02Z")
Kinda heated as this is (which is probably inevitable considering the subject matter), I’m gonna boot this over to the **Pit**. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/46 "2005-12-13T16:14:23Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > I never understood what these lists are trying to prove. How is the death penalty in the Yemen in any way similar to the death penalty in the United States? Simple. Many people regard the death penalty as barbaric _in itself_. They oppose it because they consider killing to be wrong, period. They are saying “These countries are barbaric, and so is America”. As for me, while I don’t feel that way, I do oppose the death penalty; I don’t trust the government with that kind of power. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/47 "2005-12-13T16:16:38Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Wow, the trenchant insights just keep on coming, huh? The state is nothing but a construct of its citizens. Ergo, if a state has the death penalty, its citizens are killers. You would be Williams; I would be better than him. > > –Cliffy A little abstract to really apply, huh? You can stretch philosophy a little too far. I guess I don’t understand what makes someone who reacts in kind worse than a person who wouldn’t. What is morally “wrong” with reacting in kind. As far as the Death Penalty goes…I’m from IL, so I’m very wary of the process due to recent memory. However, if there is incontrovertible evidence (witnesses, etc.), I see the Death Penalty as a necessary evil. In order to respond to an untimate crime, you should have an ultimate punishment. Brutal? Maybe, but murders are as well. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/48 "2005-12-13T16:52:47Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Wow, the trenchant insights just keep on coming, huh? The state is nothing but a construct of its citizens. Ergo, if a state has the death penalty, its citizens are killers. You would be Williams; I would be better than him. > > –Cliffy Guess what, pal, even if the state _doesn’t_ have a death penalty, you’re _still_ a killer following that logic. Because every time someone with a drug problem (who isn’t in treatment because there’s no government program for them) kills someone, you’re responsible. Every time someone kills himself because a new government regulation has just put his company out of business, you’re responsible. Every time someone goes hungry or homeless or doesn’t have health care you’re responsible. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/49 "2005-12-13T16:53:50Z")
1. I’m an opponent of the death penalty but that’s not an issue. 2. If Tookie wasn’t semi-famous for having started one of the most anti-social American phenomenom there is, we would have never heard of his reform. Why should the famous guy get pardoned? 3. His actions post-conviction only stand out because of the magnitude of his pre-conviction viciousness. 4. A pardon would send a message that if you write childen’s books on death row you might get off, especially if you start a murderous gang beforehand. 5. I admire Arnold for upholding what is a very unpopular death sentence. 6. It’s still ashame that a person who genuinely contributes to society now has to die. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/50 "2005-12-13T16:55:42Z")
I know. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/51 "2005-12-13T17:13:57Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > 1. If Tookie wasn’t semi-famous for having started one of the most anti-social American phenomenom there is, we would have never heard of his reform. Why should the famous guy get pardoned? > > … > > 1. A pardon would send a message that if you write childen’s books on death row you might get off, especially if you start a murderous gang beforehand. No one is talking about a pardon. Just commutation to life w/o parole. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/52 "2005-12-13T17:18:14Z")
A couple of questions: How many books did he write? What happened with the money he made from them; did he keep it or did he have to make restitution to his victim’s families? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/53 "2005-12-13T17:18:50Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > However, if there is incontrovertible evidence … See, in our legal system (and in yours), nobody is supposed to be convicted without incontrovertable evidence. It would create two types of guilt, one type where we’re SO sure you’re guilty we can kill you, and another type where we’re pretty sure you did it, but not positive. The latter type sounds a lot like reasonable doubt to me. If we are not 100% certain that someone is guilty, then he’s not. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/54 "2005-12-13T17:30:36Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > See, in our legal system (and in yours), nobody is supposed to be convicted without incontrovertable evidence. It would create two types of guilt, one type where we’re SO sure you’re guilty we can kill you, and another type where we’re pretty sure you did it, but not positive. The latter type sounds a lot like reasonable doubt to me. > > If we are not 100% certain that someone is guilty, then he’s not. That’s how it works. IANAL, but “supposed to” varies greatly from how it actually happens. Circumstantial evidence plays a large part in an imperfect trial system. Varying skill levels of attorneys and jury thought impact the system. I think reasonable doubt has taken a back seat. Being a media society, we also allow PR to affect our societal opinion. That’s what worries me more than anything else. A good example fo this was that lady that ran away from GA to AZ(?). The GA police weren’t going to press charges or try to recoup dollars, but the media were so harsh that I believe they were swayed into recoup. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/55 "2005-12-13T18:51:07Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Wow, the trenchant insights just keep on coming, huh? The state is nothing but a construct of its citizens. Ergo, if a state has the death penalty, its citizens are killers. You would be Williams; I would be better than him. > > –Cliffy You know, now that you mention it, I **can’t** think of a single, morally releveant distinction between executing a violent, murderous criminal, after two dozen years of appeals covering every single aspect of his trial and sentencing, after he plotted his escape and further murders, threatened the innocent members of the jury that convicted him, and has continued to lie thru his teeth about the crimes he committed - and going into a convenience store and killing four people in cold blood. Gosh, the scales have really fallen from my eyes. :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/56 "2005-12-13T18:59:13Z")
I’m against the death penalty as it currently stands in the US. It disproportionately affects minorities (especially black and brown) and the poor. It relies on an imperfect way of determining guilt. Lastly, it is uneconomical. Having said that, there are many, many people on death row or serving sentences of life without parole whose continued life serves no purpose. Stanley Williams was one of them. Until there is a perfect system of determining guilt, and until soceity punishes all defendents equally, I’d like to see the DP abolished. Then, I’d like to see the resources that go into DP cases post-conviction go into reviewing far more life sentences that were awarded on circumstantial or erroneous evidence. Under the current system, those sentenced to life without parole are thrown away and forgotten by soceity. Their cases are rarely, if ever, reviewed and retried. There is no external incentive for any type of reformation while in prison. In some ways, they are worse off than those given the death penalty. Wishing life without parole on someone with the hope that one day they might be found innocent is like wishing for a lightning bolt to strike you to get out of completing a project. ---
**Author:** ![comrade33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@comrade33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/comrade33)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/57 "2005-12-13T19:16:03Z")
> [@](#): > > We cannot base our laws or our national conscience on the actions of the rest of the world. Both human beings and human societies must make moral and legal decisions for themselves, simply following the example set by others is neither appropriate or right. you ought to do PR for the people’s republic of china. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/58 "2005-12-13T19:18:19Z")
> [@beckwall](#): > > Countries that engage in the death penalty - > > 1 **Kuwait** > 2 China > 3 **Iran** > 4 Singapore > 5 \*\*Saudi Arabia \*\* > 6 Vietnam > 7 Belarus > 8 Yemen > 9 United States > 10 **Pakistan** > 11 Egypt > 12 Bangladesh > > We’re among good friends, it seems. USA, pride of western civilization. You forgot a few others: Bahamas Barbados Belize India Jamaica Japan St. Lucia St. Vincent Perhaps we should stop making these travel destinations until they assures us that their murderers are alive and well.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/59 "2005-12-13T19:34:34Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > …Perhaps we should stop making these travel destinations until they assures us that their murderers are alive and well. So nice a response. Succinct, funny, and point-on. ---
**Author:** ![Coin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Coin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/60 "2005-12-13T19:42:05Z")
I’m very much against the death penalty, but I have to admit that if we have to have it, it’s for people like Tookie. Perhaps God will weigh the children’s books favorably against laughing at the way people pleaded for their lives as you and your friends killed them. Or perhaps not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303.md?page=4)