# Clemency denied for Tookie **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303 "2005-12-12T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/61 "2005-12-13T20:18:02Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Simple. Many people regard the death penalty as barbaric _in itself_. They oppose it because they consider killing to be wrong, period. They are saying “These countries are barbaric, and so is America”. > > As for me, while I don’t feel that way, I do oppose the death penalty; I don’t trust the government with that kind of power. Would your opinion be different if the death penalty was made mandatory for all the religious people in america? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/62 "2005-12-13T20:26:53Z")
I’ve seen little evidence that the death penalty is disproportionately applied to minorities. In 2004 39 whites were executed, 16 blacks, 3 hispanics, and 1 asian. So that makes blacks about 27% of executions in 2004, which is a greater percentage than the percentage of the total population that blacks represent (which is around 13%.) However, there’s little reason to assume death penalty ethnic stats or even prison stats in general should just be mirrors of society at large. There are various reason that certain ethnic/cultural groups would be more prone to commit crime than others. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/63 "2005-12-13T20:32:05Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > No one is talking about a pardon. Just commutation to life w/o parole. Wrong wording on my part. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/64 "2005-12-13T20:39:35Z")
I’m having trouble reconciling: 1) the claim that Williams renounced his gang loyalties and life with 2) the purported threats of gang rioting in response to his execution. If he really had turned away from the gang and wrote kids’ books about staying away from gangs, why would they riot over his execution? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/65 "2005-12-13T20:44:32Z")
OK. All snarky comments aside, can someone tell me what specific benefits to society the death penalty offers? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/66 "2005-12-13T20:53:15Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Well, considering 76% of Californians disapprove of the State legislature and something like 63% of Californians disapprove of the Governor, it’s all but impossible a good number of people doing the disapproving did the electing as well. Not too familiar with how the man got elected, are you? California has, IMHO, a very bad method of recall elections. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/67 "2005-12-13T20:53:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. All snarky comments aside, can someone tell me what specific benefits to society the death penalty offers? He’ll never, ever hurt another human being or even commit any crime ever again. That is something that life w/o parole cannot guarantee. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/68 "2005-12-13T20:58:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > He’ll never, ever hurt another human being or even commit any crime ever again. That is something that life w/o parole cannot guarantee. But if you get the wrong guy, you can never, ever correct the mistake. And it stains all of our hands with his blood, guilty or not. Just once I’d like to see the US look to the rest of the world for leadership on issues for which it is quite backward on. You’d think that the company that the US currently keeps in maintaining the death penalty would tell it something. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/69 "2005-12-13T21:06:08Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > He’ll never, ever hurt another human being or even commit any crime ever again. That is something that life w/o parole cannot guarantee. That’s true. However, life without parole in a super-maximum security (ie United States Penitentiary Administrative Maximum Facility (ADX) in Florence, CO) setting CAN effectively guarantee it. There has never been an inmate-caused injury or death from such a supermax facility. So – if we could guarantee that instead of the death penalty, convicts would be housed in supermax confinement, would you support that change? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/70 "2005-12-13T21:15:54Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > See, in our legal system (and in yours), nobody is supposed to be convicted without incontrovertable evidence. It would create two types of guilt, one type where we’re SO sure you’re guilty we can kill you, and another type where we’re pretty sure you did it, but not positive. The latter type sounds a lot like reasonable doubt to me. I’m surprised **Bricker** didn’t address this. “Beyond Reasonable Doubt” is not the same as “incontrovertible.” Juries are instructed specifically on that point. And we have lots of evidence that people have been put on death row that were innocent - _incontrovertible_ evidence. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/71 "2005-12-13T21:20:32Z")
Hey, **Bricker** , while you’re in here, would you be willing to give a short lesson on why “circumstantial evidence” does not equal “dubious crap”? There’ve been at least two posts mentioning circumstantial evidence in terms suggesting it’s less reliable than eyewitness testimony. I have a grasp of why that’s fallacious but you’d do a much better job of explaining it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/72 "2005-12-13T21:22:46Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I’m surprised **Bricker** didn’t address this. > > “Beyond Reasonable Doubt” is not the same as “incontrovertible.” Juries are instructed specifically on that point. > > And we have lots of evidence that people have been put on death row that were innocent - _incontrovertible_ evidence. And you know what? I **fully** support the death penalty for people who lie or falsify evidence in a case which results in someone wrongly being sentenced to death (even if the innocent person **isn’t** executed). Additionally, I support the death penalty for anyone in political office who is convicted of abusing their power. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/73 "2005-12-13T21:56:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s true. > > However, life without parole in a super-maximum security (ie United States Penitentiary Administrative Maximum Facility (ADX) in Florence, CO) setting CAN effectively guarantee it. There has never been an inmate-caused injury or death from such a supermax facility. > > So – if we could guarantee that instead of the death penalty, convicts would be housed in supermax confinement, would you support that change? That is neither logistically nor economically feasible. The problem is with life w/o parole. Without parole, there is little incentive of a person, who has committed a heinous crime, to reform or even to behave. S/he is in the “what worse can they do to me” stage. Given the lack of public resources to address the crimes of anyone not on death row, someone serving life w/o parole is on death row, with the date of death TBD. Death row inmates, on the other hand, constantly have all the facts of their cases reviewed. If one is indeed innocent, one is better off on Death Row; the odds are greater that evidence to prove one’s innocence will be found and brought to light (and, yes, I remember the thread discussing the case where that failed to happen). **Martin Hyde** , your 2004 statistics are misleading. Try this [Race of Death Row Inmates Executed Since 1976](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184) > [@](#): > > RACE OF VICTIMS\* SINCE 1976 > BLACK 208 14% > > HISPANIC 64 4.0% > > WHITE 1199 80% > > OTHER 32 1.9% > > \*NOTE: Number of Victims refers to the victims in the underlying murder in cases where an execution has occurred since the restoration of the death penalty in 1976. There are more victims than executions because some cases involve more than one victim > > CURRENT U.S. DEATH ROW POPULATION BY RACE > BLACK 1,419 41.7% > > HISPANIC 352 10.4% > > WHITE 1,532 45.5% > > OTHER 80 2.3% > > (Death Row Population Figures from [NAACP-LDF "Death Row USA (October 1, 2005)](http://www.naacpldf.org/content/pdf/pubs/drusa/DRUSA_Fall_2005.pdf)" _(warning: PDF)_ This does not take into account economic factors. Who gets placed on Death Row for what crime is hopelessly skewed. Until every defendant in a Death Penalty case gets the same representation that a Ted Turner or Donald Trump would receive, it will never be applied fairly. Just to reiterate: I am not morally against the state deciding the kill a person. I am against how it is currently accomplished, and I don’t know if it can be fixed to do it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/74 "2005-12-13T21:57:22Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Hey, **Bricker** , while you’re in here, would you be willing to give a short lesson on why “circumstantial evidence” does not equal “dubious crap”? There’ve been at least two posts mentioning circumstantial evidence in terms suggesting it’s less reliable than eyewitness testimony. I have a grasp of why that’s fallacious but you’d do a much better job of explaining it. Circumstantial evidence simply refers to evidence which doesn’t directly address any element of the crime, but allows a reasonable observer to INFER that the accused committed that element of the crime. The classic illustration: a witness testifies that he hears the defendent’s voice yell, “I’ll kill you, you bastard!” and then two shots ring out. Coming around the corner, he sees a body on the ground with two bullet holes in the chest, and the defendent standing over the body with a gun, the barrel smoking. That’s all circumstantial evidence. It permits a listener to make some reasonable inferences about what just happened, but it’s not direct evidence of guilt. Of course, it’s pretty damn strong evidence. Of course, we could also use the term “circumstantial evidence” to refer to a witness who merely testified that the accused had a long-standing feud with the deceased. While that, too, might permit some inference, it’s not particularly strong, standing on its own, and might well be characterized as “dubious crap.” The lesson is: circumstantial evidence may be dubious crap, or it may be rock-solid. The mere fact that it’s circumstantial has nothing to do with its reliability or probative value. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/75 "2005-12-13T22:03:03Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > That is neither logistically nor economically feasible. I’m not sure I understand. Not economically feasible – meaning that enough supermax prison space does not exist? Then what does not logistically feasible mean? ---
**Author:** ![Verminary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/71e660/32.png) [@Verminary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verminary)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/76 "2005-12-13T22:07:39Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > I know. And after electing a celebrity to be our governor has worked out so incredibly well for us :rolleyes: Terminator jokes aside, I find it very depressing to live in a state where Arnold Schwarzenegger has the power of life and death in his hands. Christopher Walken, now… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/77 "2005-12-13T22:08:36Z")
[http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/5937](http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/5937) Well, this guy has a good argument. Neither the Captain nor I particularly agree with the DP, but I can’t argue that Tookie is deserving of any merit. INdeed, he most certainly does deserve to die, and I shed no tears for him. I view his “penitence” as suspect, and I see overwhelming evidence for his guilt. Moreover, he simply refuses to admit his guilt. If he had done that, I would not have opposed a sentence commutation. I amd perfectly willing to believe men can change. But I don’t think Tookie did. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/78 "2005-12-13T22:10:40Z")
Did he not review the court transcripts? Did he not rely on the advice given him by legal experts? Or did he just wake up and say, “Let’s kill someone today?” Did you not notice that the perpetrator was tried in front of a jury? Did you not notice that there was a judge there who made a legal decision as to sentencing? Or does none of this matter because the governor once had a different job? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/79 "2005-12-13T22:11:58Z")
My posting above is in response to Verminary. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/80 "2005-12-13T22:23:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not sure I understand. > > Not economically feasible – meaning that enough supermax prison space does not exist? > > Then what does not logistically feasible mean? Logistically, we cannot convert all of our death penalty and life w/o parole inmates to supermax inmates (the definition of supermax does depend upon whom you ask). Nor could we really afford to create enough supermax cells to house them all. You could, and I imagine we do, start them in maximum security prisons, and then segregate the problems. I’m not that big of a fan of being reactive with the consequences so high (doesn’t mean I have a better plan, though). Just an FYI (you probably already know this, **Bricker** , but others might not): Florence ADX is a Federal penitentiary. Williams, I believe, was a state prisoner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303.md?page=5)