# Clemency denied for Tookie **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303 "2005-12-12T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/121 "2005-12-14T22:13:04Z")
Out of curiosity, **UnwrittenNocturne** , what do you advocate for really vicious criminals, if you don’t approve of the DP or life without parole? What kind of sentence would you want to see imposed on John Wayne Gacy or the BTK Killer? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/122 "2005-12-15T00:57:24Z")
NOTE **UnwrittenNocturne** said > [@](#): > > As it stands, I am opposed to life without the possibility of parole. opposed to life without **the possibility** of parole. Does not say that everyone should be paroled, only that parole should be a possibility in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/123 "2005-12-15T05:30:00Z")
I figure this is the best place of any to post this. Tuesday morning I was driving to LAX and listening to the radio to see if there was any rioting. I turned to a rap station (Power 106-- I think, if it matters) and the DJs were discussing the execution of Tookie. As I listened, my expression went from :rolleyes: to 😕 to :dubious: to :mad:. The DJs were honestly comparing Tookie and the Crips to the American Revolution. In fact, they were saying that the two were “EXACTLY” the same. One DJ cut in, “Ya’ll know the story of Paul Revere, yo? He rode through the streets for TWELVE DAYS saying how, like the British were coming. And because of that gangs could get up and protect the people. Just like the Crips” Alright, as much as it pains me, I shall ignore the basic, historical inaccuracy. I will just move on to my main point: **Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.**? I mean, _really._ After staring at the radio for a minute or two, I looked over at my dad and said, ‘Yup. Don’t you remember a few years back? The great Long Beach Harbor Tea Party? No taxation without gangster-nation, yo! Cept it wasn’t tea, it was chronic. Cuz that’s how they roll in the LBC. Always rollin’ down the street, smokin’ endo, sippin on gin and juice-- laid back" Sometimes you have to make light of a brian-hurting situation. Whether you agree with the execution or not-- I mean, that was just awful. I weep for our country. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/124 "2005-12-15T05:59:45Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Sometimes you have to make light of a **brian** -hurting situation. On behalf of all us Brians, I hope that **no one** makes light us getting hurt! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/125 "2005-12-15T10:51:05Z")
As a fellow Brian I wholeheartedly concur that there should be no hurting of said brians and certainly not a DP of brians. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/126 "2005-12-15T12:27:07Z")
> [@pool](#): > > As a fellow Brian I wholeheartedly concur that there should be no hurting of said brians and certainly not a DP of brians. Cheer up, Brian! You know what they say: Some things in life are bad, They can _really_ make you mad. Other things just make you swear and curse. But when you’re chewing on life’s gristle, Don’t grumble, give a whistle! And this’ll help things turn out for the best… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/127 "2005-12-15T14:36:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because the security is much more stringent in a supermax setting. > > Yes, assuming that furlough is never offered to supermax inmates is one of the assumptions I’m making. Then just to clarify - Are you willing to state for the record that you believe, with 100% certainty, that no one ever has _or ever will_ either commit a violent crime against someone else, or escape custody, after being sentenced to supermax? And that even one example will completely invalidate the concept, as you apparently believe is the case with the death penalty? Thus they will never, ever assault a guard or another inmate, escape while being transferred, have their sentence changed, be moved to another prison of lesser security, or in some other way pose a threat to the public? Because I am prepared to guarantee that some one who has been executed won’t. Is that the deal? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/128 "2005-12-15T14:45:45Z")
Given the length of time between conviction and actual execution, your argument is unpersuasive, **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/129 "2005-12-15T17:43:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And yet that’s not the case. > > Because the security is much more stringent in a supermax setting. > > Yes, assuming that furlough is never offered to supermax inmates is one of the assumptions I’m making. Rick, make no mistake, I’m as opposed to the death penalty as you are. However, let me disabuse you of the notion that somehow supermax prisons will prevent inmates from committing crimes. > [@](#): > > [Locked Down: Gangs in the Supermax](http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prisongangs/a1.html) > > At Pelican Bay State Prison, behind a maze of concrete walls, high voltage security fences and steel doors, lies a prison within a prison. It’s commonly known as a supermax. The state of California calls this place the Security Housing Unit or SHU. > > (from page 3): By the late 1990s, law enforcement started to see the true scale of the NF. George Collord, a police detective in Santa Rosa, was investigating unsolved gang murders when an informant linked the crimes to Pelican Bay. His investigation later triggered a major FBI task force. **Collord was stunned to discover a sophisticated gang network throughout northern California - all controlled by NF leaders in Pelican Bay’s Security Housing Unit**. And that’s just the first article I tripped upon. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/130 "2005-12-15T18:55:43Z")
More (all bolding mine). . . > [@](#): > > [http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prisongangs/b1.html](http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prisongangs/b1.html) > > . . . “That was part of the supermax thinking; places to hold people, incapacitate people for long periods of time,” says Irwin. "But they were really based on the attempts to control this new obstreperous population of people who were into first racial violence and then gang violence. > > “That was the reason for Pelican Bay,” says Daniel Vasquez who worked in corrections for 30 years. He was warden of San Quentin Prison in the 1980s when courts approved the use of extreme isolation of inmates. That set in motion the rise of the supermax and the building of Pelican Bay State Prison in a remote corner of California’s north coast. > > “It was no man’s land,” says Vasquez. “Nobody wanted to be there, but that’s where you went. And that was the end of the line for you. And we built this mammoth prison to house you under the most adverse conditions possible of isolation, of light deprivation and human deprivation because you were a tough dangerous gang member and, by gosh, we were going to treat you that way.” > > . . . > > But recidivism in California is the highest in the country, and **the supermax has not stopped prison gangs**. The militant groups that emerged in the 1960s expanded into extortion and drug dealing, in prison and sometimes on the streets. > > . . . > > But getting out of the SHU is difficult. It requires either renouncing the gang and cooperating with authorities, or remaining inactive for six years, something inmates say is almost impossible. > > . . . > > Many inmates survive the Pelican Bay SHU by following the gang’s strict daily regime of stationary exercise and intensive study. > > “I always saw the SHU was a piece of steel you could sharpen yourself with,” says David, a member of a white gang who spent more than five years in the SHU. "You’re not going to get that kind of opportunity to look at who you are and what you need to change about yourself to be stronger like you will in the SHU. > > David committed himself to the gang **after** receiving a 25-to-life sentence. > > . . . > > Brown says a monochrome hopelessness pervades the SHU, and **enhances the gangs’ ability to recruit young men**. > > . . . > > Prison officials say reducing violence in the general inmate population is the reason they have to lock all prison gang members in the SHU. **But in spite of rigorous security, the SHU does not shut down gangs**. > > “Even though we do our best to segregate them in this kind of environment,” says Perez, “they’ve adapted. They’ve learned where the weaknesses are in the system. They’ve adapted and they use whatever is available to them.” > > **In some cases, the men in here are ordering murders, drug deals, all sorts of crimes on the outside, not just in prison**. > > “Yes,” says Steven Perez. “And we never built it with the expectation that it would stop all crime.” I don’t know what that answer is, but it sure doesn’t appear to be supermax prisons, either. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/131 "2005-12-15T21:42:22Z")
I’m Brian, and so’s my wife! Thanks, **Shayna** Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/132 "2005-12-15T21:53:27Z")
Note to All Brian Mc Smartasses: I hate all of you. You are dead to me. That’s right, you’re on The List (the Dead to Me List, of course). That is all. Love, Diosabellissima 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/133 "2005-12-15T22:01:40Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Note to All Brian Mc Smartasses: > > I hate all of you. You are dead to me. That’s right, you’re on The List (the Dead to Me List, of course). > > That is all. > > Love, > > Diosabellissima > > 😛 You do realize that the **most** common misspelling of “Brian” is “Brain” and that even those of us who have a “Y” or a “O” in our name get stuck with the misspelling all the time. Some of us, like myself, are pretty cool with it, others have hysterical hissyfits not unlike the one you’re displaying now. ;p (Oh, and does putting someone on the “Dead to Me List” violate either the rule about discussing your ignore list or wishing death on someone?) ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/134 "2005-12-16T00:58:08Z")
Well la dee da! Alright, that’s as snarky as I can get. The Dead to Me List was a joke from the Colbert Report. I sincerely hope you weren’t attempting to accuse me of breaking some rule. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/135 "2005-12-16T01:04:03Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Well la dee da! > > Alright, that’s as snarky as I can get. > > The Dead to Me List was a joke from the Colbert Report. I sincerely hope you weren’t attempting to accuse me of breaking some rule. Sheesh. Nah, just ribbin’ ya. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303/136 "2005-12-16T02:14:18Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Nah, just ribbin’ ya. 😃 I, um, knew that and stuff. :: shifty eyes :: I was, uh, testing you. Yup, that’s the ticket. Writes “Tuckerfan” on the list. What? 😃 (I kid, of course!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clemency-denied-for-tookie/335303.md?page=6)