# Cleopatra was black/white??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626 "2009-03-16T15:39:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/41 "2009-03-16T22:31:19Z")
[del]Elizabeth Taylor[/del] Eartha Kitt as Cleopatra. Yeeeessss…muuuch better. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/42 "2009-03-16T23:09:02Z")
Her grandfather was [Mithridates the Great](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_VI_of_Pontus), IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/43 "2009-03-16T23:17:30Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > The children in [this picture](http://www.pbs.org/opb/thenewheroes/meet/wahab_ss_1.html) are Egyptian. If Cleopatra shared half her acestory with them, would she look “black” to you? Many Egyptians are quite fair-skinned, and as of yet there’s no evidence that her mother was one who wasn’t. It’s funny how that every one of these racial threads seem to come down to people linking pictures and judging whether they are “black” or “White” or something… Soooo… I’ll just get this over with… [Alexandria](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Iskandariyah_Governorate) (North) - [Alexandria kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Alexandria) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Aswan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Aswan kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Aswan) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Asyut](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asyut_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Asyut kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Asyut) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Damanhur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Buhayrah_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Damanhur kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Damanhur) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Beni Suef](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Suwayf_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Beni Suef kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Beni) Suef kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Cairo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qahirah_Governorate) (Middle Nile) - [Cairo kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Cairo) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Mansura](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Daqahliyah_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Mansura kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Mansura) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Damietta](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domyat_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Damietta kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Damietta) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Faiyum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Fayyum_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Faiyum kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Faiyum) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Tanta](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gharbiyah_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Tanta kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Tanta) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Giza](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jizah_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Giza kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Giza) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Helwan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_Governorate) (Middle Nile) - [Helwan kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Helwan) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Ismailia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Isma%27iliyah_Governorate) (Canal) - [Ismailia kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Ismailia) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Kafr el-Sheikh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_ash_Shaykh_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Kafr el-Sheikh kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Kafr) el-Sheikh kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Luxor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Luxor kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Luxor) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Mersa Matruh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matruh_Governorate) (Western) - [Mersa Matruh kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Mersa) Matruh kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Minya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Minya_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Minya kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Minya) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Shibin el-Kom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Minufiyah) (Lower Nile) - [Shibin el-Kom kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Shibin) el-Kom kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Kharga](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Wadi_al_Jadid_Governorate) (Western) - [Kharga kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Kharga) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Arish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamal_Sina%27_Governorate) (Sinai) - [Arish kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Arish) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Port Said](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bur_Sa%27id_Governorate) (Canal) - [Port Said kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Port) Said kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Banha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qalyubiyah) (Lower Nile) - [Banha kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Banha) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Qena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qina_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Qena kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Qena) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Hurghada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Bahr_Al_Ahmar_Governorate) (Eastern) - [Hurghada kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Hurghada) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Zagazig](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Sharqiyah_Governorate) (Lower Nile) - [Zagazig kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Zagazig) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Sohag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhaj_Governorate) (Upper Nile) - [Sohag kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Sohag) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [el-Tor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janub_Sina%27_Governorate) (Sinai) - [el-Tor kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=el-Tor) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [Suez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Suways_Governorate) (Canal) - [Suez kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=Suez) kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) [6th of October](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_of_October_Governorate) (Middle Nile) - [6th of October kids]([Google Search](http://images.google.ca/images?q=6th) of October kids&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) How many people do you see that you would call white? black? where are they from? If only we had an objective measure of “whiteness” or “blackness”… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/44 "2009-03-17T02:51:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What is the picture supposed to prove? FWIW, he looks Eastern European to me, but it’s hard to tell in a black and white (heh) photograph. > > -XT It’s supposed to demonstrate that what we think of as black and white is largely a cultural construct. **smiling bandit** wrote the following: > [@](#): > > First off, none of the three valid links show me anything like a “black” man. Second, they wouldn’t look out of place in Greece, or much of Italy, either, nor parts of Spain. White doesn’t mean “Anglo”. The picture I linked to [which was certainly not any of the ones **smiling bandit** was referring to]was a man named Scott Bond who was a very successful African American farmer from Arkansas who died in 1933. Anwar Sadat looks more middle eastern to me than anything else but I could certainly see why someone in the United States seeing him walk down the street would assume he was black. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/45 "2009-03-17T03:00:17Z")
> **[Was Cleopatra black?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342848/was-cleopatra-black)** > > A STAFF REPORT FROM THE STRAIGHT DOPE SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD What Cecil says. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/46 "2009-03-17T03:16:10Z")
[QUOTE=Odesio] It’s supposed to demonstrate that what we think of as black and white is largely a cultural construct. [/QUOTE] The concept of ‘race’ is a cultural construct. Her ‘race’, in so far as we know, was a melange of Macedonian Greek with perhaps a mix of other Mediterranean ‘races’ (such as Persian or perhaps main land Greek). Since we don’t have any actual pictures of Cleo however I don’t see how showing us pictures really says much of anything regarding the question…except to illustrate how silly this question actually is. Is that your point? > [@](#): > > The picture I linked to [which was certainly not any of the ones smiling bandit was referring to]was a man named Scott Bond who was a very successful African American farmer from Arkansas who died in 1933. Anwar Sadat looks more middle eastern to me than anything else but I could certainly see why someone in the United States seeing him walk down the street would assume he was black. Ok…but again, what point are you trying to make here? That people perceive race based on visual cues? Granted…people perceive race based on visual cues. We don’t, however, have ANY colored pictures of Cleopatra, so the point is kind of moot. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/47 "2009-03-17T04:33:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, the whole family to be rather amazingly inbred - worse than Hapsburgs. 😃 You aren’t kidding. “[she] only had four great-grandparents and six (out of a possible 16) great-great-grandparents (furthermore, four of those six were descended from the other two).” And it doesn’t get any better the further back you go. Her two only real great-great-grandparents (the ones all her other great-great-grandparents were decended from them), were uncle and niece (on both her mothers and father’s sides). After Ptolomy VII and Celopatra III there is absolutely no outside blood in her line (at least as long as her known geneology is correct). So if she had any native african blood (white or black) it would have to come from before them. And none of them seem to qualify. Here is the list of her unique ancestors: Ptolemy I - Full Macedonian. Berenice I - Full Macedonian. Arsinoe I - Also full Macedonian. Berenice II - 3/4 Macedonian and 1/4 Sogdian (modern Uzbekistan) Cleopatra I - 1/2 Macedonian and 1/2 Greek (from Pontus) All of her ancestry goes through only these 5 people. And not one of them has any african ancestry that we know of (white or black). As best I can tell she is 1/8 Pontian (Greek), 1/8 Sogdian and 3/4 Macedonian. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/48 "2009-03-17T04:40:37Z")
Man, I hope for her sake that there were some bastards in there… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/49 "2009-03-17T05:08:39Z")
Were Macedonians in the first century BC nearly as dark as they are now, or were they lighter, like the Thracians and Illyrians? Cuz, if we’re looking for folks who match the 20th Century definition of “Caucasians,” ya’ll can’t get “whiter” than them. Yeah, I don’t think a smilie is needed, but for newbies, ;). ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/50 "2009-03-17T05:17:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Man, I hope for her sake that there were some bastards in there… Well to be fair both (yes only two) of her grandparents were illegitimate and there is alot of discussion about exact parentage. For example Cleopatra V is sometimes labeled the daughter of Berenice III and sometimes the daughter of Cleopatra IV. It doesn’t help that Berenice’s III real name was Cleopatra and that the number is a modern adoption to help us keep them apart. So at one point one of the two living Cleopatras in the royal family had an illegitimate daughter by either Ptolomy IX or X (their numbers are modern too so the father isn’t known with certanty either) and named her Cleopatra. And Ptolomy XII seems to have an equally confused parentage for largely the same reason. But the idea that P XII and C V were born to a parent completely outside the family seems to be a recent invention. Whoever their parents were they were both recognized as full Ptolomy’s at the time. A distinction that was not granted to any real bastards (not that there are any that I am aware of). They seemed to really like to keep it in the family so to speak. But in the greater scheme of things it doesn’t change much for this discussion. Whether Cleopatra V and Ptolemy XII were the children of Cleopatra Berenice (known as Berenice III) or her aunt Cleopatra (known as IV) and either of her uncles (both named Ptolemy) is really a bit irrelevent. Cleopatra VII’s ancestry seems to go entirely through Ptolomy VII and Celopatra III. And the tree doesn’t really branch much above that either. And above them the geneology seems to be much more solid. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/51 "2009-03-17T05:54:49Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Well to be fair both (yes only two) of her grandparents were illegitimate and there is alot of discussion about exact parentage. Oops. I was just re-reading this and that should be parents, not grandparents. I’m not sure who I was trying to insert in there. Honestly the whole family gives me a headache. It is hard enough to follow non-branching family trees but when you give every kid the same name (and frequently the same nickname) it just gets tiresome. I mean really when you are outdoing hollywood stereotypical backwood hicks it is time to give it a rest. Hi, I’m Ptolomy this is my brother (and uncle, and brother in law) Ptolomy, and this is my other brother (and nephew, and cousin) Ptolomy. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/52 "2009-03-17T05:59:16Z")
Well yeah, but everyone was black & white before about 1951. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/53 "2009-03-17T13:22:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ok…but again, what point are you trying to make here? That people perceive race based on visual cues? Granted…people perceive race based on visual cues. We don’t, however, have ANY colored pictures of Cleopatra, so the point is kind of moot. > > -XT I made no statement about Cleopatra. My point specifically addressed a comment made by **smiling bandit** about a series of photos linked by **griffin1977**. Not only do people perceive race based on visual cues but their conclusions can be radically incorrect. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/54 "2009-03-17T13:42:16Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Well to be fair both (yes only two) of her grandparents were illegitimate and there is alot of discussion about exact parentage. > > For example Cleopatra V is sometimes labeled the daughter of Berenice III and sometimes the daughter of Cleopatra IV. It doesn’t help that Berenice’s III real name was Cleopatra and that the number is a modern adoption to help us keep them apart. So at one point one of the two living Cleopatras in the royal family had an illegitimate daughter by either Ptolomy IX or X (their numbers are modern too so the father isn’t known with certanty either) and named her Cleopatra. > > And Ptolomy XII seems to have an equally confused parentage for largely the same reason. But the idea that P XII and C V were born to a parent completely outside the family seems to be a recent invention. Whoever their parents were they were both recognized as full Ptolomy’s at the time. A distinction that was not granted to any real bastards (not that there are any that I am aware of). They seemed to really like to keep it in the family so to speak. > > But in the greater scheme of things it doesn’t change much for this discussion. Whether Cleopatra V and Ptolemy XII were the children of Cleopatra Berenice (known as Berenice III) or her aunt Cleopatra (known as IV) and either of her uncles (both named Ptolemy) is really a bit irrelevent. Cleopatra VII’s ancestry seems to go entirely through Ptolomy VII and Celopatra III. And the tree doesn’t really branch much above that either. And above them the geneology seems to be much more solid. That’s what makes this whole “debate” somewhat hilarious. Why choose, out of all possible historical characters, a person who by all accounts appears to have been a thorougly inbred descendant of a family of Macedonians as an example of someone “Black”? It is hard to imagine someone born in Africa more genetically “White” as it were - as someone whose whole family, Euro immigrants, appears to have bred with literally no-one outside the family during the entire time its members lived in Africa! [The extant coins depicting Cleopatra, for what they are worth, show her as looking typically Greek]. BTW, this whole royal incest thing didn’t start with the Ptolemies, it was seemingly an Egyptian royal trait. Interesting to speculate as to why - perhaps to avoid having influental “consort clans”? Or are royals brought up to despise non-royals as inferior beings, and thus forced to mate within the family? Cleopatra herself was married to her brother, but didn’t have a problem breeding with non-family members … ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/55 "2009-03-17T15:33:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Additonally, Cleopatra was in no way “Egyptian” in ancestry, but the descendant of Greek invaders. > > There had been Black African pharohs of Egypt - the Nubian dynasty: > > [Taharqa - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa) > > Cleopatra was certainly not among them. [sub]… must … resist … aaargh …[/sub] “[What’s a Nubian?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSVZmk8Yzg)” [sub]There … I feel much better now …[/sub] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/56 "2009-03-17T15:53:48Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > African is not the same as “black”. Apropos of nothing… I live in Memphis, Tennessee, which is split pretty evenly racially and frequently the scene of racist idiocy from both sides. A few years back, we had an exhibition of Egyptian art on display at one of our municipal boondoogles, and the Egyptian ambassador or consul or whatnot, here for the opening of the exhibition, was asked to weigh in on some racial issue hereabouts. He hemmed and hawed for a few minutes before saying, “Look, we’ve got enough ethnic strife in our own country,so if you don’t mind we’re not going to get in the middle of whatever silliness you guys are doing here, okay?” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/57 "2009-03-17T16:22:06Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > There was a fair amount of intermarrying going on between about 700 ad and current as trade routes moved people around, and military actions moved populations around. Trade around the Mediterranean goes back much, much farther than 700 AD, of course. The Greeks and the Persians were at it hammer and tongs in 1200 BC — the approximate date for the Trojan War which, although a little lighter on the gods and glory than Homer had it, was probably a real battle or series of battles between Greece and Anatolia. There were Greeks on the Italian peninsula as of about 800 BC, during which time they were warring with Carthage. In fact, as of about 1100 BC, there are known Egyptian mummies dressed in _silk_, which means there must have been some level of trade going on with China via India, or at least India herself. There’s every reason to suspect that intermarriage and mixed ancestry through trade and conquest had been going on for 50 generations before Cleopatra even turned up. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/58 "2009-03-17T17:00:30Z")
Don’t forget Scota! Even during the most ancient times, travelling wasn’t common… but the people who did it travelled _really_ far. She exists _somewhere_ between 610 BC and 1610 BC, but it’s kind of hard to figure out when, if she did actually exist. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In Geoffrey Keating’s Foras Feasa ar Éirinn Ireland’s “ninth appellation it received likewise from the sons of Milesius, who named it Scotia, from their mother’s name, Scota, who was the daughter of Pharaoh Nectonibus, king of AEgypt; or perhaps from themselves, they being originally of the Scythian race.” > > According to the Middle Irish language synthetic history Lebor Gabála Érenn she was the daughter of Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt. - see entry on Scota. > > Other sources say that Scota was the daughter of Pharaoh Neferhotep I of Egypt and his wife Senebsen, and was the wife of Míl, that is Milesius, and the mother of Éber Donn and Érimón. Míl had given Neferhotep military aid against ancient Ethiopia and was given Scota in marriage as a reward for his services. Writing in 1571, Edmund Campion named the pharaoh Amenophis; Keating named him Cincris or Forann. Happy St. Patrick’s day. (bloody english interloper) ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/59 "2009-03-17T17:47:36Z")
Also, let’s not forget Alexander the Great who, in about 300 BC, was off conquering lands well to the east of the Mediterranean, and encouraging intermarriage among his followers. It’s really ridiculous to imagine some bright line between continents right up through 1 AD, and that prior to that, all of Africa was one homogenous “all-black” race, and Europe was likewise “all-white.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/60 "2009-03-17T17:52:41Z")
Actually, the Ptolemaic empire in Egypt was a direct consequence of Alex The Really Good, since Ptolemy was one of Alex’s generals. That said, I don’t think that Ptolemy OR his decedents were really keen on intermarriage with the locals…in fact, IIRC, they were fairly xenophobic about such things (and even seemed to have an aversion to marriage or sex with anyone not directly related in fact). -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626.md?page=4)