# Cleopatra was black/white??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626 "2009-03-16T15:39:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/81 "2009-03-19T18:21:14Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > My main point is that there is no such thing as “sub-saharan africa history.” “sub-saharan africa” is purely a western racially based paradigm. > > Dude please, you will even find an example of a Wheel on the chariot depicted on Tutankhamun’s Painted Box …You would also find examples of all these things -minus road building for some reason- with a quick internet search (“[plough](http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~tcrndfu/articles/S&N04.pdf), road building, [irrigation](http://books.google.ca/books?id=c_rVMfBFaJYC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=axumite+irrigation&source=bl&ots=KKdXtneD1a&sig=8d11IzEQKM93nVCW5_wHA9x3cpU&hl=en&ei=CoDCScmXGoTSnQeYtcSVCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result), or a [written](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_alphabet)[language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Nubian_language)”) in many civilizations that have come and gone in the area stretching from Egypt to Somalia. There is even a[book (originally written in Arabic)](http://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Abyssinia-Futuh-Habasa/dp/0972317260/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237484610&sr=1-4) from the 1500’s that details the invasion of Ethiopia by a Somali [Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Ibrihim_al-Ghazi) which brought down the entire Abyssinia empire. > > In west Africa I find a very different [literate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbucktoo#University_of_Sankore)culture developing in a very different climate and geography that also includes [iron working](http://www.unifr.ch/geoscience/mineralogy/archmet/index.php?page=780), [irrigation/farming](http://mali.pwnet.org/history/history_mali_empire.htm), etc. > > Clearly the reason people make grand claims of African historical inferiority is not due to a lack of history in Africa, but because of the ignorance of westerners. This could also be due to the fact we have a overly simple and strongly racialized view of “Africa” as a whole (the term "sub-sahara Africa highlights this even more strongly -like there is anything that groups those people together other then their skin colour). > > As I wrote before our racial perceptive [that can even shift](http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/12/social_status_shapes_racial_identity.php) to label anything of (say historical) value (or high status) as non-African/black… Or maybe I’m just a tad crazy… Maybe both. No, “sub-saharan africa” is a _geological_ term. > **[Sub-Saharan Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa)** > > Sub-Saharan Africa\[a\] is the area and regions of the continent of Africa that lie south of the Sahara. These include Central Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa, and West Africa. Geopolitically, in addition to the African countries and territories that are situated fully in that specified region, the term may also include polities that only have part of their territory located in that region, per the definition of the United Nations (UN). This is considered a non-standardised geographical Th... "Sub-Saharan Africa is a geographical term used to describe the area of the African continent which lies south of the Sahara, or those African countries which are fully or partially located south of the Sahara.[1][2] It contrasts with North Africa, which is part of the Arab World [3] The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara and the tropical savanna (the Sudan region) and forest-savanna mosaic to the south." Egypt is not sub-saharan africa, so that wheel is out. Sudan/Kush is not sub-saharan africa, so that plough is out. Axum is not sub-saharan africa so that irrigation is out. Nubia is not sub-saharan africa so that written language is out. It’s true that Timbuktu had an early center of learning _"During the early 15th century, a number of Islamic institutions were erected. The most famous of these is the Sankore mosque, also known as the University of Sankore_" Note, however, that this was in the \*early 15th century \*and it was an _Islamic_ institution. It’s also true that the Dogon had iron smelting- but “6th-19th century AD”. Iron smelting likely started either in India or the Levant/Ferttile Cresent, around 1000 years earlier than that. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/82 "2009-03-19T19:57:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Also, like a previous poster : why Cleopatra??? Why isn’t the same question asked about, say, Thoutmosis III? It’s not like there’s a shortage of Pharaohs who might or might not have a skin darker than… darker than whom, anyway? Standard responses to to “Thoutmosis III was black!” would include “Who?”, “What?”, and “So?” Cleopatra is one of the most famous rulers in Africa’s history, and certainly its most famous female ruler. (Nefertiti has some name recognition, but it’s unclear if she ever wielded power in her own name.) Cleopatra is also considered (popularly, if not in fact) a great beauty AND she stood up to the great European power of the age. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/83 "2009-03-19T23:28:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, “sub-saharan africa” is a _geological_ term. > [Sub-Saharan Africa - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa) > "Sub-Saharan Africa is a geographical term used to describe the area of the African continent which lies south of the Sahara, or those African countries which are fully or partially located south of the Sahara.[1][2] It contrasts with North Africa, which is part of the Arab World [3] > > The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara and the tropical savanna (the Sudan region) and forest-savanna mosaic to the south." ah, ah, it is a geological term used to denote a western contrived racial group. While it’s clear that you wish the term wasn’t used a synonym for “black Africa” that does not mean that it is not one. > [@](#): > > Egypt is not sub-saharan africa, so that wheel is out. > Sudan/Kush is not sub-saharan africa, so that plough is out. > Axum is not sub-saharan africa so that irrigation is out. > Nubia is not sub-saharan africa so that written language is out. Your assertions do not fit reality. Sure Egypt can be safely said to be not in sub-saharan africa, but [Kush](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush)/[Nubia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia)/[Axum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum)all fit into what is modern day [Sudan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan)/[Eritrea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrea)/[Ethiopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia). I honestly would love to hear the reasonings behind these assertions. If you choose these above states as “not sub-saharan africa” I would like to know why you then agreed with me that the various [Sahelian Kingdoms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelian_kingdom) in west africa to be a part of sub-saharan africa. Kingdoms like: the [Ghana Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Ghana), [Songhai Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire), or [Mali Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire). I need you to explain your logic so that I can follow. > [@](#): > > It’s true that Timbuktu had an early center of learning _"During the early 15th century, a number of Islamic institutions were erected. The most famous of these is the Sankore mosque, also known as the University of Sankore_" Note, however, that this was in the \*early 15th century \*and it was an _Islamic_ institution. You’ll find that [the empire itself](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire) is a bit more older then that. And yes, it was an Islamic institution, so what? It was an Islamic empire, the king at the time [was a strong Muslim](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa). You will also find that [Axum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum) was a sun-god worshiping empire that turned Christian ([in fact you can see the exact king who did it by his use the cross on his coinage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezana_of_Axum)). Did you expect them to be Buddists? Perhaps atheists? Please connect the dots for me. > [@](#): > > It’s also true that the Dogon had iron smelting- but “6th-19th century AD”. Iron smelting likely started either in India or the Levant/Ferttile Cresent, around 1000 years earlier than that. If you find Nubia/Axum/Kush not sub-sahara Africa and 6th century AD too recent then take a west african example (for some reason you seem to easily consider them as part of sub-sahara Africa) [ > [@](#): > > But the facts speak for themselves. Tests on material excavated since the 1980s show that iron was worked at least as long ago as 1500 BC at Termit, in eastern Niger, while iron did not appear in Tunisia or Nubia before the 6th century BC. At Egaro, west of Termit, material has been dated earlier than 2500 BC, which makes African metalworking contemporary with that of the Middle East. ]([http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL\_ID=3432&URL\_DO=DO\_TOPIC&URL\_SECTION=201.html](http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html)) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/84 "2009-03-19T23:29:57Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Cleopatra is also considered (popularly, if not in fact) a great beauty AND she stood up to the great European power of the age. With such resounding success Egypt was not independent again for centuries. And I don’t know if she was quite exactly “standing up” during those dealings, y’know…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/85 "2009-03-19T23:40:07Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > With such resounding success Egypt was not independent again for centuries. And I don’t know if she was quite exactly “standing up” during those dealings, y’know…😉 When you are dealing with great powers, you can stand up and get fucked, or lie down and get fucked. Usually metaphorically, but it seems that Cleopatra did it literally. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/86 "2009-03-19T23:49:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, “sub-saharan africa” is a _geological_ term. > [Sub-Saharan Africa - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa) > > Sudan/Kush is not sub-saharan africa, so that plough is out. > Axum is not sub-saharan africa so that irrigation is out. > Nubia is not sub-saharan africa so that written language is out. Your cite contradicts your assertions above. Please note the section on East African history. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/87 "2009-03-20T13:28:57Z")
Ok Sadats mother was Sudanese. As in proper “Negroid” African (if thats even a term). Thats why he “passes” for black. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/88 "2009-03-20T17:08:35Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > When you are dealing with great powers, you can stand up and get fucked, or lie down and get fucked. Usually metaphorically, but it seems that Cleopatra did it literally. To comment further, at no point did Cleopatra stand up to _anybody_. She sided with one Roman faction against another, and chose… poorly. And this was after “entertaining” Julius Ceasar himself. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/89 "2009-03-20T18:18:46Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > To comment further, at no point did Cleopatra stand up to _anybody_. She sided with one Roman faction against another, and chose… poorly. And this was after “entertaining” Julius Ceasar himself. [😃](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd996sqXnDw) ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/90 "2009-03-24T00:18:48Z")
Half-watched the BBC drama-documentary when it was transmitted earlier this evening. What was striking, given the press coverage they’d whipped up in advance, was how their expert phrased the crucial assessment of the skull. Looking at the computer reconstruction of it in the final minutes of the programme, her words were along the lines of “we can see that the skull is long in proportion to its height. That’s unusual in Greece, but there are populations where that’s normal. Like Egyptians. Or sub-Saharan Africa.” Glossing over the major uncertainties about whether the tomb is that of her half-sister, the fact that the skull has been lost and what can be said from craniometrics in individual cases, one possible explanation seems to have been quickly lost. But I don’t suppose a _ **Cleopatra was Egyptian!** _ headline would have set many pulses racing.[sup]\*[/sup] [sub]\* Yes, I do realise this would actually be an interesting conclusion. But that’s not true of the average journalist, sub-editor or newspaper reader, hence the observation.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/91 "2009-03-24T03:34:45Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > With such resounding success Egypt was not independent again for centuries. And I don’t know if she was quite exactly “standing up” during those dealings, y’know…😉 I never said she was successful, but it’s unlikely you or I could have done better. Rome was on the rise and Egypt on the decline before Cleopatra took the throne. Julius Caesar planned to annex Egypt but did not, allowing it some additional years of at least nominal independence. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > To comment further, at no point did Cleopatra stand up to anybody. She sided with one Roman faction against another, and chose… poorly. This is somewhat self-contradictory. If she stood with one faction, she stood against the other - and the other happened to be the one that was still in Rome. > [@](#): > > And this was after “entertaining” Julius Ceasar himself. Her “entertainment” of Caesar is not in dispute. Without it, her reign and her life may well have been shorter. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/92 "2009-03-25T13:14:45Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Half-watched the BBC drama-documentary when it was transmitted earlier this evening. What was striking, given the press coverage they’d whipped up in advance, was how their expert phrased the crucial assessment of the skull. Looking at the computer reconstruction of it in the final minutes of the programme, her words were along the lines of “we can see that the skull is long in proportion to its height. That’s unusual in Greece, but there are populations where that’s normal. Like Egyptians. Or sub-Saharan Africa.” > Glossing over the major uncertainties about whether the tomb is that of her half-sister, the fact that the skull has been lost and what can be said from craniometrics in individual cases, one possible explanation seems to have been quickly lost. > > But I don’t suppose a _ **Cleopatra was Egyptian!** _ headline would have set many pulses racing.[sup]\*[/sup] > > [sub]\* Yes, I do realise this would actually be an interesting conclusion. But that’s not true of the average journalist, sub-editor or newspaper reader, hence the observation.[/sub] This. The BBC documentary was pretty awful. Neil Oliver, the presenter, is not my favourite but the real problem was the lack of a coherent argument (let’s face it there was very little real evidence that the bones were Arsinoe’s and the skull reconstruction was based on the records from 60/70 years ago, the following racial identification was not exactly certain, etc) but the real problem was the ridiculous dramatic reconstructions ☹ (incidently, neither of the actresses playing Cleo and Arsinoe were what I’d call “black”. More generic Eastern Meediterranean.) Why do the makers of programmes like this believe an audience can’t follow their story without dressing up a load of modern actors in wigs and togas? Just to add to the idiocy, the Roman history telling the story of Arsinoe’s death was presented as the author dramatically orating his tale to a Roman banquet. Bad enough, but the Roman author was played by [Ian McNeice](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0573862/)who played the Newsreader in HBO’s Rome - complete to the same dramatic flourishes :smack: Generally bad history and worse television. Returning to the OP: this documentary, and the archeology it was based on, told us next to nothing about whether Cleopatra was “black/white”. Nor did it bring out the truth that black/white or african/european meant next to nothing in the 1st century BC. To the Egyptian population and priests (outside Alexandria) you were nothing if not Egyptian, to the ruling Ptolemies you were a barbarian if not of Greek descent, and to the Roman you were beyond the pale if not a Roman. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626/93 "2009-03-25T20:37:47Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > If she stood with one faction, she stood against the other - and the other happened to be the one that was still in Rome. Not really. Her supprot of Marc Antony was rather limited, since her resources were pretty limited. She was ingratiating herself with the side she thought would win (and particualrly since Octavian did not like her). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleopatra-was-black-white/489626.md?page=4)