# Cleveland Indians remove Chief Wahoo logo by 2019 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 29, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754 "2018-01-29T19:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/41 "2018-01-30T19:46:47Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I lived on Guam for years. > > I could see the merchandise selling there. Mostly to Japanese tourists. They’d pay big bucks too. Rats. I picked Guam, thinking there wouldn’t be much of a market for Indians merch generally out there. My thought was that a much smaller fraction of mainland America expatriates in Guam would be Indians fans than in NE Ohio, and the native Guamanians probably wouldn’t be interested. Didn’t know that Guam got lots of Japanese tourists. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/42 "2018-01-30T19:54:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It would have been enjoyable seeing all concerned parties aggravated by the announcement that the Chief would be replaced by a new, dignified Native American logo They could borrow the [Redskins logo](http://main.tvgu1jdkm2wvqi.maxcdn-edge.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/SLH/nfl_primary/washington_redskins_1982.png), which is much more respectful than either the Redskins name or the Chief Wahoo logo, when the Redskins finally change their name to something that has no connection to Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/43 "2018-01-30T20:03:38Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Rumor is Rob Manfred told the Indians they can either host the 2019 All Star game or keep Chief Wahoo. So if the Indians aren’t completely willingly doing this, they might not care exactly how divorced they are from the logo. Why have the owners been so resistant over the years? It must have been obvious even in 1947 what this thing meant. Is it just the natural human defensiveness to being told one is in the wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/44 "2018-01-30T20:23:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And yes, it’s a caricature, but then, so is every team mascot and every cartoon character. Meta-question: Is there an objective way to decide whether a particular cartoon caricature is or is not racially/ethnically offensive? or is it purely in the eye of the beholder? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/45 "2018-01-30T20:45:48Z")
[Here’s an article from 2014 about the dubious claims of “honor” in the Indians name.](http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/18/the-cleveland-indians-louis-sockalexis-and-the-name/) ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/46 "2018-01-30T20:46:57Z")
Has anyone mentioned it’s really a goofy mascot? If I were a Cleveland fan, I’d want to see it gone for no other reason than that. As for some colleges with Native American mascot/nicknames, FSU Seminoles and Illinois Illini have the endorsement of these tribes. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/47 "2018-01-30T20:54:17Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Has anyone mentioned it’s really a goofy mascot? If I were a Cleveland fan, I’d want to see it gone for no other reason than that. [As if the team’s on-the-field mascot weren’t already goofy enough](http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/indians-mascot-slider-poses-nudes-espn-body-issue-magazine-cleveland/56x2q09u7upqzdvxrva0m0s2)? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/48 "2018-01-30T21:01:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Meta-question: Is there an objective way to decide whether a particular cartoon caricature is or is not racially/ethnically offensive? or is it purely in the eye of the beholder? Probably not. Unfortunately, it’s probably going to always require a small amount of empathy and compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/49 "2018-01-30T21:24:41Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > [As if the team’s on-the-field mascot weren’t already goofy enough](http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/indians-mascot-slider-poses-nudes-espn-body-issue-magazine-cleveland/56x2q09u7upqzdvxrva0m0s2)? Blocked here at work. But I imagine it has something to do with Notre Dame. And I totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/50 "2018-01-30T21:25:17Z")
I wonder if it was always seen as offensive, but what’s actually changed over the years has been societal acceptance of offensiveness. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/51 "2018-01-30T21:32:53Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Blocked here at work. But I imagine it has something to do with Notre Dame. And I totally agree. No he was pointing out that the team’s on-field mascot is a fluffy pink alien thingy guy. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/52 "2018-01-30T21:47:38Z")
Great. Now let’s see the Redskins change their name and logo. Or at least the name, for crying out loud. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/53 "2018-01-30T22:41:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I wonder if it was always seen as offensive, but what’s actually changed over the years has been societal acceptance of offensiveness. Does that matter? As the citations i provided earlier in the thread demonstrate, Native American groups have been expressing their opposition to the logo since at least the late 1960s. And even if their opposition had only begun in, say, the 1990s, so what? The question to ask about a logo like this is, Is it offensive now, and should it be eliminated? I have no doubt that the societal definition of what is offensive has changed over the past 50 years or so, and that a larger portion of the population finds it offensive now than did back then. And again, so what? Isn’t society supposed to change its practices as values and ideals change? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/54 "2018-01-30T23:11:02Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > As for some colleges with Native American mascot/nicknames, FSU Seminoles and Illinois Illini have the endorsement of these tribes. Though, the University of Illinois retired their “Chief Illiniwek” mascot in 2007. Even so, there continues to be Illinois students and alumni trying to re-institute the mascot, and there’s someone who shows up at events as the “unofficial Chief.” > **[Chief Illiniwek | Retiring Chief Illiniwek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Illiniwek#Retiring_Chief_Illiniwek)** > > On February 16, 2007, Lawrence Eppley, chair of the board of trustees issued a unilateral ruling retiring Chief Illiniwek. Chief Illiniwek's last performance, by the final Chief, Dan Maloney of Galesburg, Illinois, took place on February 21, 2007 at the last men's home basketball game of the 2006–2007 regular season against Michigan, in Assembly Hall. As at the time, Chief Illiniwek also performed at women's home basketball games, the first halftime performance without the portrayal of Ch On Marc... ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/55 "2018-01-31T00:10:04Z")
Yes, society’s acceptance of offense has changed. For the better. There was a bit of a cultural revolution back in the 60’s and early 70’s. Perhaps some people missed it. But this isn’t a political thread, so I’m just noting that, especially towards Native Americans, things have changed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/56 "2018-01-31T00:50:43Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > [Here’s an article from 2014 about the dubious claims of “honor” in the Indians name.](http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/18/the-cleveland-indians-louis-sockalexis-and-the-name/) Wow; that was an excellent article. Thanks for linking it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/57 "2018-01-31T01:00:31Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > As for some colleges with Native American mascot/nicknames, FSU Seminoles and Illinois Illini have the endorsement of these tribes. [nitpick] AFAIK, Florida State University is the only NCAA school with the endorsement of a Native American tribe to use their name, imagery, etc. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/58 "2018-01-31T02:39:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [nitpick] > > AFAIK, Florida State University is the only NCAA school with the endorsement of a Native American tribe to use their name, imagery, etc. > > [/nitpick] Central Michigan uses “Chippewas” with the consent of the [Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Michigan_Chippewas). The Ute tribe gave the University of Utah “explicit permission to use the name” [when the NCAA began to pressure schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Utes#Nickname) to drop Native American-themed nicknames, ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/59 "2018-01-31T15:44:04Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Great. Now let’s see the Redskins change their name and logo. Or at least the name, for crying out loud. The name, sure. What’s wrong with the logo? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754/60 "2018-01-31T16:00:59Z")
Their logo is no worse than the Chicago Blackhawks’ one. The name, however … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cleveland-indians-remove-chief-wahoo-logo-by-2019/807754.md?page=4)