# Clever Foxes
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 1, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797 "2014-06-01T23:31:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Billybonds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billybonds)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/1 "2014-06-01T23:31:07Z")
I clearly remember being told as a kid that foxes, to rid themselves of fleas & other parasites, had this neat trick of holding a piece of wood in their mouths and then very slowly backing into a stream or pond. As the water soaked thru their fur the parasites would keep moving up the body, onto the snout…and when almost all the animal underwater, onto the piece of wood and “Presto” …no more parasites.
I have searched in vain for some reference to this for a while now …and can find none at all …can anyone enlighten as to whether this is a myth or a documented fact
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/2 "2014-06-02T00:01:39Z")
Why don’t you give it a try? Why should it only work for foxes?
Does it work for raccoons? Are foxes smarter than raccoons? How about dogs? Dogs often have fleas. Did you ever see a dog backing into the water? Cats?
I once saw a bigfoot backing into the water. Maybe he was trying to get rid of parasites?
As a kid, I was told that snakes made hoops to roll downhill, you shouldn’t swim after eating, and God was real. Then I grew up.
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### Author:  [@Billybonds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billybonds)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/3 "2014-06-02T00:13:23Z")
Crikey! Sorry I asked such a dumb childish question …I’ll slink back to my playroom now
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### Author:  [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/4 "2014-06-02T00:24:02Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> Why don’t you give it a try? Why should it only work for foxes?
>
> Does it work for raccoons? Are foxes smarter than raccoons? How about dogs? Dogs often have fleas. Did you ever see a dog backing into the water? Cats?
>
> I once saw a bigfoot backing into the water. Maybe he was trying to get rid of parasites?
>
> As a kid, I was told that snakes made hoops to roll downhill, you shouldn’t swim after eating, and God was real. **Then I grew up**.
I hope I’m not the only one who thought that was needlessly harsh…☹
**Billybonds** , that said I would say its an urban (rural?) legend. For one, it would do nothing for the eggs that have surely been laid. In any case, why should the fox (or any other animal) provide a safe refuge for the fleas? Just jump in the water and drown 'em, assuming they are smart enough to realize that (1) the fleas are the source of their discomfort and (2) that drowning them will work.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/5 "2014-06-02T00:26:23Z")
_I_ thought it was needlessly harsh, too.
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### Author:  [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/6 "2014-06-02T00:32:13Z")
Yep seems harsh to me too. I’ve never heard of it.
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### Author:  [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/7 "2014-06-02T00:40:54Z")
Jesus, Musicat.
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### Author:  [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/8 "2014-06-02T00:51:36Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#):
>
> I hope I’m not the only one who thought that was needlessly harsh…☹
I heard that long ago, but whatever source I was reading had it as _wool_. I don’t think this is a stretch for any reasonably sentient furred animal to figure out; stand in a stream to drink, and it might feel fleas jump higher from it’s legs. Figure that if you provide a dry location even further up they’ll go there, and you’ve got a fox in the river biting part of it’s last meal.
All the sources I was able to find in the last bit seem to indicate that while the story goes back to Aesop’s time, it has no known merit.
I would posit that _something_ came up with the technique at some point… and if an observant shepherd didn’t see this happen, I’m not sure why it would occur to anyone otherwise. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/9 "2014-06-02T00:55:38Z")
This urban legend evidently goes back to at least the 1890s.
[http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0063.html](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0063.html)
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### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/10 "2014-06-02T01:09:40Z")
Well, foxes are traditionally supposed to be cunning.
> [@samclem](#):
>
> This urban legend evidently goes back to at least the 1890s.
>
> [The Fox (or Jackal) and the Fleas](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0063.html)
I note that there is also a story on that page that is titled “The Jackal and the Flees” (_sic_), but is actually about a monkey and some wheat, and makes no mention of either jackals or fleas (or even “flees”).
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/11 "2014-06-02T01:33:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> Why don’t you give it a try? Why should it only work for foxes?
>
> Does it work for raccoons? Are foxes smarter than raccoons? How about dogs? Dogs often have fleas. Did you ever see a dog backing into the water? Cats?
>
> I once saw a bigfoot backing into the water. Maybe he was trying to get rid of parasites?
>
> As a kid, I was told that snakes made hoops to roll downhill, you shouldn’t swim after eating, and God was real. Then I grew up.
**Moderator Note**
Whether this is snark or a poor attempt at a joke, it’s inappropriate as a first response (or any response) in GQ. Don’t do this again.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/12 "2014-06-02T06:59:51Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#):
>
> **Billybonds** , that said I would say its an urban (rural?) legend. For one, it would do nothing for the eggs that have surely been laid. In any case, why should the fox (or any other animal) provide a safe refuge for the fleas? Just jump in the water and drown 'em, assuming they are smart enough to realize that (1) the fleas are the source of their discomfort and (2) that drowning them will work.
True. Also, it would require that the fleas can: 1) see the rising water 2) recognise the oncoming danger 3) figure out that they must migrate to higher ground.
Also, doesn’t fur trap air, allowing them to breathe anyway?
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/13 "2014-06-02T07:09:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> **Moderator Note**
>
> Whether this is snark or a poor attempt at a joke, it’s inappropriate as a first response (or any response) in GQ. Don’t do this again.
>
> Colibri
> General Questions Moderator
It’s a stupid question that doesn’t belong in this forum, and you know it.
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### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/14 "2014-06-02T09:11:08Z")
It also seems to be an Indian (not red) fable as in The Jackal and the fleas. [Romantic Tales from the Panjab: With Indian Nights' Entertainment - Charles Swynnerton - Google Books](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CrCUyqxWALoC&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=%22The+Jackal+and+the+Fleas%22&source=bl&ots=b0kj55qsf4&sig=dDl5xWUCbaCo5T2FSTFMBUpGyY8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ET2MU6SEGoHsO8KpgPgL&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Jackal%20and%20the%20Fleas%22&f=false)
He doesn’t go in backwards though.
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### Author:  [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/15 "2014-06-02T11:11:34Z")
I’ve heard of it, but have no idea if it’s true.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/16 "2014-06-02T11:48:20Z")
I’d heard of it too, but always reasoned that it would require a level of abstraction, planning and reward delay we don’t always even see in humans, so should not expect to see in foxes.
I think James Herbert used it (or something like it) in his novel _Fluke_ which was about:The adventures of a man reincarnated as a dog, with full recollection of his human life.
(not really sure that needs a spoiler tag, but just to be safe)
But I’d heard of it prior to that - this has the ring of an ancient fable to it. [This](http://www.icr.ro/bucharest/animalia-ro-33-2009/the-fox-from-fable-to-reality.html) page claims it is contemporary with the fables of Aesop.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/17 "2014-06-02T13:37:56Z")
> [@bob\_2](#):
>
> It also seems to be an Indian (not red) fable as in The Jackal and the fleas. [Romantic Tales from the Panjab: With Indian Nights' Entertainment - Charles Swynnerton - Google Books](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CrCUyqxWALoC&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=%22The+Jackal+and+the+Fleas%22&source=bl&ots=b0kj55qsf4&sig=dDl5xWUCbaCo5T2FSTFMBUpGyY8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ET2MU6SEGoHsO8KpgPgL&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Jackal%20and%20the%20Fleas%22&f=false)
_Tales of the Panjab_ is a collection of short fiction by Flora Annie Steel. It reads a bit like Aesop’s fables because that’s the style British writers worked in during the Raj, but it’s not a collection of folk tales or anything. You see the same kind of tone and style in Kipling. I think you’ve found the source of the urban legend, though.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/18 "2014-06-02T16:46:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> > [@Colibri](#):
> >
> > **Moderator Note**
> >
> > Whether this is snark or a poor attempt at a joke, it’s inappropriate as a first response (or any response) in GQ. Don’t do this again.
> >
> > Colibri
> > General Questions Moderator
>
> It’s a stupid question that doesn’t belong in this forum, and you know it.
That justifies rudeness?
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### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/19 "2014-06-02T16:58:17Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> It’s a stupid question that doesn’t belong in this forum, and you know it.
Given that the OP makes it quite clear that he recognizes that it is likely to be false, and is clearly seeking a source at least as much as a confirmation, not it isn’t, and yes it does.
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### Author:  [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clever-foxes/689797/20 "2014-06-02T19:42:47Z")
Contrary to Musicat’s claim, this is not a stupid question. I have seen many times the story of how a fox may get rid of fleas in the manner the OP suggests. I seem to recall that it was related by a writer in antiquity (not Aesop), although I cannot confirm that now. A search right now takes it back to the Winchester Journal (Oct. 16, 1878), and I’m sure it’s older than that.
Some of the accounts are in apparently respectable sources. For example, advertisements for American Wild Life Illustrated (1940), and I assume the book itself, cite this as a fact. Various newspapers in 1900 (e.g., Columbus Daily Times (Sept. 19, 1900)) recount a story of a hunter and naturalist witnessing this in the Patapsco River.
Is the story true? No doubt a degree of skepticism is in order. Natural History Magazine, without elaboration, says simply “False,” [Museum Quiz | Natural History Magazine](http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/061788/museum-quiz?page=3). And if it did occur, you would have to bear in mind that (1) the strategy would not be completely effective, as it would not get rid of eggs, and (2) this would be a learned behavior, so not all foxes would engage in it.
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