# Cliff Richard? INDIAN! and other ethnic/minority celebrity appropriations **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 19, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920 "2005-06-19T15:30:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@cabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cabdude)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/21 "2005-06-20T02:26:56Z")
Russell Crowe was born in New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/22 "2005-06-20T02:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Any such examples come to mind? Many people have thought Bruce Springsteen is Jewish because of his last name. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/23 "2005-06-20T02:51:41Z")
Many assume that Tim Roth is Jewish, but unbelievably, his original name was actually Tim Smith. His father changed the family name when they traveled to a foreign country that hated the English (not sure which one.) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/24 "2005-06-20T03:09:20Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > I thought that wasn’t a secret, unless whoever wrote his [IMDb biography](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004874/bio) is trying to “out” him. (Scroll down to the trivia section.) Well, it’s pretty well known that Vin Diesel is part black and part Italian. But Vin hasn’t gone out of his way to claim any ethnicity. In a magazine article I once read, an anonymous friend of Vin’s told a reporter (I’m paraphrasing, but this is essentially what he said), “Look, you have to understand how it is for an actor. Vin IS Italian, but he’s lost out on lots of Italian roles because casting directors thought he looked too black. And he IS black, but he’s lost out on lots of black roles because casting directors didn’t think he looked black enough. For now, Vin’s ambiguous ethnicity seems to be working FOR him, for a change. So, why would you expect him to mess with a good thing?” IF that’s really Diesel’s thinking, can you blame him for being coy about what his “real” ethnicity is? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/25 "2005-06-20T06:58:24Z")
I might be Jewish, but I’m not sure. I’m not a celebrity but this thread seemed relevant. I’m kind of in an ethnic limbo. I am of German descendency on my Mother’s side but while the family name is German, it is also a common Jewish name. Frankly, I don’t know if we are German-Jews or not. I am of the impression that we have always claimed to be German, but that would make sense and be a smart move on an immigrant’s part to avoid anti-semitism. We don’t have a Jewish religous tradition, but there are some physical traits on my Mom’s side that make me less certain of my ethnicity. I say this half-jokingly and don’t mean to imply a stereotype but me and my mom are neurotic worriers, as well! I don’t mean to sound like some kind of junior eugenicist, but I really do wonder. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/26 "2005-06-20T08:34:41Z")
My story does have a celebrity connection that I didn’t really mention in my first post, sorry about the double post but I always forget to mention important things. I had never really considered that I might have Jewish origins and took it on faith that I was German until several years ago when I saw a documentary about [Lenny Bruce](http://www.jimpoz.com/quotes/speaker.php?speakerid=277). I learned of Lenny’s real, birth name and well, that’s when I realized we shared something in common as well as the realization that the name is also Jewish. I also had to consider that I might actually be be directly related to Lenny. I was struck by the resemblence between him and pictures of my Grandfather that I had seen as well as other family members. The chin is what got me… that strong, cleft or dimpled chin runs in the males in that side of the family. Not to mention dark hair and dark features. Pretty weird realization to come about from Lenny Bruce, hunh? Felt like it was a joke he composed especially for me from beyond!! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/27 "2005-06-20T08:45:13Z")
Actor Hank Azaria is of Greek Sephardic Jewish heritage; his family hails from Salonika. As my mother-in-law’s parents were also from that formerly vibrant Jewish community (most of which died in the Holocaust), she is happy to accept him as a potential long-lost relative. She also thinks he’s really cute. ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/28 "2005-06-20T09:06:25Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > I read somewhere that Ben Kingsley is an Anglo-Indian whose non-stage name was Krishna Bhanji but never followed up on it. He certainly does have that desi shnozz, though. Anglo-Indians and their huge shnozzes rock! (Sez me, who is one). 😉 Merle Oberon - now no-one seems to be completely clear as to what her ancestry is. Was she Burmese, Anglo(Welsh)-Indian, Eurasian…? During the 1930s and 1940s the studios publicised various romantic versions of her antecedents, but were they actually true? Even Tasmania tried to claim her (Was she born in Tas as a result of an affair between an English businessman and a Burmese chambermaid? Etc.) [She](http://www.thegoldenyears.org/oberon.jpg) is obviously of [exotic,](http://212.84.179.117/i/Merle%20Oberon.jpg) , [swirly](http://www.portrait.gov.au/content/exhibit/hollywood/content/merle_oberon.jpg)[ancestry,](http://www.leninimports.com/merle_oberon_biography_main_2.jpg) , but which is swirling with which? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/29 "2005-06-20T09:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Actor Hank Azaria is of Greek Sephardic Jewish heritage; his family hails from Salonika. As my mother-in-law’s parents were also from that formerly vibrant Jewish community (most of which died in the Holocaust), she is happy to accept him as a potential long-lost relative. She also thinks he’s really cute. Same here. My father’s father’s family was from Salonika as well. I’m surprised there’s another Romaniote on this board. One of the rarer ethnicities out there. Wasn’t it former UN head Kurt Waldheim’s troops that massacred the Jewish community there? (Along with thousands of Serbs?) ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/30 "2005-06-20T11:43:38Z")
Interestingly, Nargis, the Audrey Hepburn of her day in India, was always thought to be Muslim on the basis of her name but it turns out that she was a Romanian of Romany (is that the word now used for gypsy?) origin and she escaped to India where she managed to learn Hindi and get into movies. At least, this is what my father excitedly told me one day. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/31 "2005-06-20T11:47:44Z")
Carol Channing writes in her autobiography that her paternal grandfather was black. Her father was light skinned and always “passed” for white. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/32 "2005-06-20T13:34:58Z")
**Devilsknew** My paternal grandfather’s name was Wright. I was confused how a German family came by that name. Mom told me that it was originally Rubinstein. He changed it to avoid antisemitism. Jack Ruby shortened his name from Rubinstein for the same reason. Names also got changed by the immigration people working at Ellis Island. Any name that was too dificult to spell or pronounce was changed. I have a friend whose last name is Kine. He’s not happy about the word since it means cattle. Originally, the family name was ‘Hchin-uh’ (it starts with the same phlegm raising noise challeh, Hannukah, etc). The American immigration worker couldn’t pronounce that, and changed it to Kine. So, it’s very possible that you’re of Jewish descent. Re Hank Azaria I did not know that. Back To The OP For Judaism, Adam Sandler’s Hannukah song gave us a long list. Some most of us had known for a long time, and some surprises. Moe, Curly and Shemp Howard were really the Horowitz brothers. Larry Fine was Larry Fineberg. Harry Houdini was born Erich Weiss. Again, they changed their names to avoid antisemitism. Not Italian, But Jewish (Though, of course, you can be both) James Caan, Abe Vigoda, and Rodney Dangerfield. I have yet to meet a Jew who wasn’t proud that Sammy Davis Jr was one of us. I remember the way my bubby’s face used to light up when she told me of the conversion of the Candy Man. Judaism has always placed a great value on learning and inteligence. So, many lists of famous Jews include Sigmund Freud. Freud was an atheist. ‘I’ve never understood why I’m hailed as some triumph of Judaism when the only thing I’ve done is not to deny that I am Jewish.’ AFAIK Mandy Patinkin is Jewish. Whenever the subject comes up, somebody mentions that they hope he’ll record an album of cantorial music (prayers sung in Hebrew). Everybody else immediately agrees that this would be great. When claiming Jewish celebrities, we do have to be careful for Italians, and nonJewish Germans. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/33 "2005-06-20T13:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode AFAIK Mandy Patinkin is Jewish. Whenever the subject comes up, somebody mentions that they hope he’ll record an album of cantorial music (prayers sung in Hebrew). Everybody else immediately agrees that this would be great. When claiming Jewish celebrities, we do have to be careful for Italians, and nonJewish Germans.[/QUOTE] Will [Yiddish](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000005J4T/qid=1119275433/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/104-2460161-8144744?v=glance&s=music) do? ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/34 "2005-06-20T13:55:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Not Italian, But Jewish > (Though, of course, you can be both) James Caan, Abe Vigoda, and Rodney Dangerfield. > > \ > > When claiming Jewish celebrities, we do have to be careful for Italians, and nonJewish Germans. There is a fine line, isn’t there? Re: Sophia in the Golden Girls. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/35 "2005-06-20T13:57:41Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Will [Yiddish](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000005J4T/qid=1119275433/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/104-2460161-8144744?v=glance&s=music) do? It will indeed. Unfortunately, I don’t have a sound card in this machine at the moment and can’t listen to the clips. [Hijack] Who are these shmendricks who wrote those bad reviews? Yiddish songs are _supposed_ to be melodramatic. They can wail with anguish. They can laugh with joy. There is no middleground. And translating popular English songs is assimilationist? When did a prophet appear and say it was no longer acceptable to translate songs into Yiddish? And you want a reason to sing the hokey pokey in Yiddish? It helps teach kids Yiddish and to associate a song and fun memories with Judaism.[/Hijack] Re Caroll Channing Caroll Channing? She’s one of the palest people I’ve ever seen. Caroll Channing? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/36 "2005-06-20T14:05:02Z")
> [@Martha](#): > > There is a fine line, isn’t there? Re: Sophia in the Golden Girls. Estelle Getty is another case of a Jew (in her case a first generation American born to Polish parents) playing Italian (in her case Sicilian). A quick look at her official website [http://www.estellegetty.com/faq.html](http://www.estellegetty.com/faq.html) confirms her Jewness. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/37 "2005-06-20T15:38:57Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Many people have thought Bruce Springsteen is Jewish because of his last name. I thought he was Australian because of his first name 😉 ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/38 "2005-06-20T15:57:18Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Merle Oberon - now no-one seems to be completely clear as to what her ancestry is. Was she Burmese, Anglo(Welsh)-Indian, Eurasian…? During the 1930s and 1940s the studios publicised various romantic versions of her antecedents, but were they actually true? Even Tasmania tried to claim her (Was she born in Tas as a result of an affair between an English businessman and a Burmese chambermaid? Etc.) > > [She](http://www.thegoldenyears.org/oberon.jpg) is obviously of [exotic,](http://212.84.179.117/i/Merle%20Oberon.jpg) , [swirly](http://www.portrait.gov.au/content/exhibit/hollywood/content/merle_oberon.jpg)[ancestry,](http://www.leninimports.com/merle_oberon_biography_main_2.jpg) , but which is swirling with which? Well, I read most of Merle Oberon’s biography, and IIRC, she was born in India, the daughter of an Indian maidservant and a British or Irish worker. I believe the studios made up the story that she was born in New Zealand or Tasmania. When she started acting in Hollywood movies, she learned to lose her Indian accent and used makeup to look paler, although she was already very light-skinned. It has been three years or so since I read the book, so I hope I’m remembering correctly. Regardless, she was a great beauty and a good actress. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/39 "2005-06-20T16:17:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Dinah Shore has long been “claimed” by black Americans. It is commonly believed that the woman passed as white. There is a rumor that she had a black-looking baby and sued her mother for not informing her of her heritage. I think this rumor is rather incredible, but looking at her [pictures](http://www.obits.com/shoredinah.jpg), I do wonder… > > Other celebrities that have been suspected of hiding their “blackness”: > > Babe Ruth > J. Edgar Hoover > Vin Dinsel I dunno, the IMDB pictures are better and I don’t really see it. Not that I’m a good judge > **[Latest Stills - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/gallery/rg1859820288?path=pgallery&path_key=Shore,%20Dinah&seq=13)** > > IMDb: Movies, TV, Celebs, and more... ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920/40 "2005-06-20T21:44:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Devilsknew** My paternal grandfather’s name was Wright. I was confused how a German family came by that name. Mom told me that it was originally Rubinstein. He changed it to avoid antisemitism. Jack Ruby shortened his name from Rubinstein for the same reason. Names also got changed by the immigration people working at Ellis Island. Any name that was too dificult to spell or pronounce was changed. I have a friend whose last name is Kine. He’s not happy about the word since it means cattle. Originally, the family name was ‘Hchin-uh’ (it starts with the same phlegm raising noise challeh, Hannukah, etc). The American immigration worker couldn’t pronounce that, and changed it to Kine. So, it’s very possible that you’re of Jewish descent. I was trying to be cryptic and never really revealed my Maternal family’s name, but I guess if you realize that Lenny Bruce was born Lenny Schneider then you know the name we share. The problem is that according to the limited research I have done it is both a German name and a Jewish name, hence my uncertainty. The name means “tailor” and apparently that occupation had a tradition within German Jewery, much like the occupation of Jeweler. I unfortunately know very little geneologically about that side of my family so my roots remain largely unknown. They are, however not exactly blonde haired and blue eyed Germans, hence my suspicion–although that really doesn’t mean anything, ostensibly. Unfortunately, I kind of keep it to myself as I don’t know how well the revelation would go over. Wouldn’t you know it we’re all self loathing! :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cliff-richard-indian-and-other-ethnic-minority-celebrity-appropriations/308920.md?page=3)