Climate change deniers, doubters, and fence sitters: an honest question

The State of Global Warming Science

So given all the above uncertainties, the approach that Mann, Briffa, the CRU and the IPCC have taken is to ignore all this and try to reconstruct temperature trends and correlate them with CO2 to make predictions in the future.

To do this, you need accurate temperatures going as far back in the past as you can get, and you need accurate measures of CO2 going back in the past as well. But this is a very hard thing to do, and all the current approaches have serious limitations.

For example, one of Mann’s chief data sources for his historical temperature reconstruction are tree ring cores - trees grow at different rates based on temperature. So all else being equal, by measuring the rings of a tree that lived for hundreds of years, you can get an idea of how temperature increased or decreased in that time. The key here, though, is ‘all else being equal’. A year of drought can affect growth. So can a flood, or an insect infestation, or unusual cloud cover, or all sorts of things - some of which aren’t even understood. So, selecting just the right set of trees becomes important - and a source of bias.

In this particular case, Mann settled on a set of 12 cores selected by Keith Briffa, called the “Yamal Series”. There has been plenty of criticism of this. For one thing, 12 cores is an awfully small sample size. For another, some scientists have wondered what was so special about those 12 trees - many other cores in the same region were also taken. And it turns out, if you take any subset other than those specific 12, you get a very different temperature result. Either by accident or intention, these 12 seem to be almost cherry-picked to get the result needed to make Mann’s theory work.

In addition, Briffa’s trees stopped responding accurately to temperature in 1960 - and no one knows why. Mann’s answer was to ‘hide the decline’ by splicing actual measured temperatures onto the same line for the after-1960 period. This is bad science. It’s misleading. And it ignores the point that if the trees were responding differently after 1960, and we don’t know why, how do we know that they didn’t respond differently in the past? What Mann did would be somewhat akin to an astronomer deciding the ‘science is settled’ around the orbital motion of planets - except for that pesky Mercury, which seems to be anomalous. So, just splice in the ‘known’ orbit information in place of the ‘unusable’ orbital data of Mercury, and now everything works! Yay!

Anyway, temperatures in one region are not a good proxy for global temperature. It can be hotter than usual in one place, and colder than usual in another. One of the criticisms of Mann is that his ‘hockey stick’ graph does not show a Medieval Warming Period and Little Ice Age. These were fairly well established features in science until Mann’s Hockey Stick came along. The CRU E-mails suggest that he ‘smoothed’ them away by using statistical methods - a somewhat dubious practice, especially since he seemed to admit that he repeatedly tried different techniques until he managed to eliminate them (with the MWP and LIA in place, the current temperatures don’t look very abnormal).

Now, global warming scientists say that in fact they didn’t exist at all, and were artifacts of having only certain local measurements. That’s awfully convenient for Mann, who removed them before such evidence existed. Or perhaps the current evidence is also cherry-picked. There are plenty of scientists who still believe they existed.

Where you get to is that once you get past the basic chemistry of warming, it gets a lot fuzzier. There are plenty of papers still being published which call into question some of the foundations of AGW theory. It is by no means ‘settled science’ when we start talking about long-term effects, and the statistical and modeling techniques used to sidestep the complexity of earth’s interactions and use past data to model the future all have various flaws or concerns. And despite the claims of AGW proponents that there are many temperature reconstructions, and they all generally agree, the fact is that they are all intertwined in some way, either using the same raw data or building on each other’s results, and that most of the scientists working on this stuff stay in close communication. Normally, I’d say that’s not a problem, but the CRU E-mails have shown that many of these people behave in decidedly unscientific ways, and have colluded to do things like block papers from being published, stall peer reviews to keep inconvenient papers on the sidelines as long as possible, punish editors who dare to publish papers they don’t agree with, peer review each other’s work, unethically pass review material to each other breaking rules of anonymity and conflict of interest, etc. I have no faith that some of these people are acting as responsible scientists. They are advocates of a political cause, and they behave like it.
If you get away from the hysteria and the headlines that are trumpeted each time a paper is published that makes AGW look worse (as opposed to the silence or open hostility that greets papers which make it seem more questionable), you find that the actual scientific consensus is much more modest than the alarmists would have you believe. The ‘best estimate’ from the IPCC is on the order of 3 degrees of warming over the next hundred years, with sea level rises of perhaps a third of a meter. The error bars around this estimate are very large - ranging from no real warming at all other than what’s expected of the interglacial period, to warming of about 6-7 degrees. That the range is so large tells you just how unsettled the science really is. There is still much we don’t know.

My big beef is that while plenty of studies show the correlation between human-emitted CO2 and global warming, no one has actually demonstrated that this is the case. Correlation is not causation. Scientists must demonstrate that the warming we’ve seen is due to the CO2 that’s been emitted, and this they have signally failed to do.

I am also highly skeptical of all the models. Quite aside from the recent unauthorised release of data, we have temperature reconstructions seeking to disprove the Medieval Warm Period which show that the Little Ice Age didn’t exist. And we know that the Little Ice Age did exist. Now, if a reconstruction says one thing, and historical evidence says another, I’m going to go with the evidence.

(Contrariwise, the end of the Little Ice Age is remarkably coincident with the start of the Industrial Revolution. Who’s to say that AGW isn’t keeping us out of a real ice age?)

And then we come to those leaked emails. They cast many of the pro-AGW crowd in a very bad light, massaging data, trying to oust people for contrary views, and showing that the whole area is very incestuous. They should be glad of them: science must withstand hostile scrutiny.

Then there’s the data itself. The massaging of it, heat island effects, etc. And the lack of it. Has Mann released his source data yet?

Then we come to the public actions. Need I remind everyone about Bjorn Lomborg? Global Warming is the new religious hysteria / Inquisition. And the outright refusal to countenance all other possible sources. The correlation between sunspots and poor climate is well attested - at least in the Northern Hemisphere - and we currently have the benefit of an ongoing solar minimum with which to test it. But at least in the public reporting of Global Warming science, it’s CO2 and nothing but CO2.

Obviously I haven’t read the source paper, but that article doesn’t prove what you say it proves.

Well, that extra warmth has to be stored as energy somewhere.

Notice that word ‘think’ in the last sentence. Notice that the sentence is not “We have now demonstrated that …” Scientists are very careful about such phrasing. And it carefully does not specify the origin of the extra warmth.

In other words, still not proven.

Don’t get me wrong: anthropogenic CO2 could well be responsible for at least some of the warming, and probably the majority. It does fit very well. But it’s not certainly to blame for all of it, or even a significant proportion of it. And it’s up to the proponents to make that case. And until the case is proven, I’m sitting on the fence.

  1. The fact that CO2 is the basic driver of climate.
  2. The absurd positive feedbacks needed to achieve the higher, catastrophic temperatures.
  3. The fact that these high feedbacks make models fail as they go backwards.
  4. The fact the most predictions/models have error bars that are several times bigger than the effect measured.
  5. The fact that our measurements of past temperatures depend on proxies that do not show clear, linear correlations with temperatures.

and lots of what Sam Stone said.

Limitations on Action

The next problem I have is that there is a huge gap between “Global Warming is Happening” and “We must institute cap and trade!” Or insert your policy of choice here.

Problems can exist without there being a reasonable solution to them. Any plan to reduce carbon emissions locally, without a comprehensive, enforceable global treaty, is madness and probably counter-productive. But it’s hard to engage pro-AGW people in this debate. They’d rather fall back on simplistic arguments like, “Global warming is settled science, and therefore, if you oppose cap and trade you’re a ‘denier’”. That way, they don’t have to argue the much more difficult aspects of how to do anything meaningful about the problem.

Let’s be specific - let’s say the U.S. eliminated its CO2 entirely. What would be the result? Well, first of all it would make it less necessary for other countries to do the same, because the problem is now somewhat diminished. Further, assuming the U.S. did it by eliminating oil consumption, this would lower demand for oil and therefore lower the cost of it - which would increase demand elsewhere in the world. And since the rest of the world is less energy efficient, this could very well lead to an increase in global CO2 emissions.

Furthermore, to the extent that forced CO2 emission reductions harms economic growth, it could hurt the U.S.'s ability to make investments in R&D and engineering which could lead to an actual sustainable reduced-CO2 energy infrastructure.

Finally, even if something could be done, there is a cost-benefit aspect to this. Is it worth spending a trillion dollars today to avoid a trillion dollars in damage 100 years from now? Of course not. Some reasonable discount rate has to be applied to account for the time-value of money. Any reasonable discount rate indicates that the damage would have to be extremely severe to warrant the kind of investments AGW proponents want to make today. Damages far higher than those predicted by the ‘best estimate’ of the IPCC. So in a sense, the pro-AGW people are telling us to ignore the science and assume the absolute worst, or their justification for extreme action completely breaks down.

The hard fact is that Russia has much to gain from selling oil. China and India have much to gain from consuming it in ever-greater amounts. These three countries can shut down any meangingful climate change action - and they will. There is no question about it. Therefore, instituting economy-wrecking policies like Obama’s cap-and-trade is an idiotic thing to do.

Once you accept the basic fact that countries act in their own interest, and that every drop of oil in the ground is going to be burned until it no longer makes sense to do so, the only answer is clear - we need to develop new energy sources that are more cost-efficient than oil and coal and other fossil fuels. Once you do that, countries will stop burning fossil fuels out of their own economic interest. Until you do, they won’t.

Spend more money on R&D into alternative energy. Lots more. That’s the only answer.

:rolleyes:

This was mentioned before, it can not be misleading when it was explained before by researchers why the tree rings are not used after 1960, only the blobiators at Fox and blogessors insist that it was done to mislead or that the researchers did not mention the issue; as it was pointed before, it would be misleading to rely on the data that was shown to be unreliable after 1960. As the journal Nature reported, proxy temperatures are not the main reason or evidence why scientists know that the earth is warming by unnatural reasons.

Once again that works only by ignoring on purpose that the IPCC relied on that early proxy reconstruction that showed the medieval warming period in their first report, the latest reconstructions (from the 2007 report that you have mentioned as more reliable) show less warming in the medieval period, as it was pointed before and ignored, you are disregarding the fact that science can not remain static. Early proxies did not had much sources to get a very reliable reconstruction, the latest data showed that the medieval warming can not be confirmed as being warmer.

The evidence tells climate researchers that it is warming and the Little ice age was not as impressive as some think.

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/global_warming_worldbook.html

The fact that researchers expect ice age conditions to come in about 20,000 years. The current warming is not keeping us out of that.

It was not massaged, scientists are not telling you that, Fox news and blogessors are deceiving you.

Yes
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/36/13252

Once again the blobiators lied to you.

http://www.lomborg.com/faq/

Now that is clear that you are depending on unreliable sources, I have to say you are likely wrong on this one too.

That’s what I came in here to post, but Blake beat me to it.

Well, with a slight modification; I’ve seen a couple of folks in those threads stipulate that 20 years of cooling will call the theory into question. But as to the OP:

All apologies, but that is what I’m talking about. I’m not granting anything either way about the underlying theory; I’m primarily interested in whether it can now be falsified by measuring an observed temperature decline that keeps continuing (a) well beyond the past decade-plus of cooling (b) all the way out to the endpoint of some stipulated timescale. If it’s currently vulnerable to such a hypothetical, then it’s useful science. If it can’t make any such predictions, then it’s not.

It is clear to me that that it can be falsified in less than 20 years (as 10 or so years of “apparent cooling” showed up), but one has to notice that the deniers in the media in that video are shown to be willing to mislead and lie to millions.

Funny how that works . . .

I don’t care one way or the other about “the deniers in the media in that video”; I don’t care whether they’re willing to mislead and lie, sure as I don’t care whether folks on the other side are willing to mislead and lie. I only care about what you’ve just mentioned, that it can be falsified in less than 20 years; the rest is irrelevant, both sides can simply watch the numbers roll in.

Yes, as per your link it doesn’t need to be “monotonic” and can be “decadal”. And, yes, as per your post you’re stipulating “less than 20 years”; is that the consensus regarding falsification on your side, or does it vary greatly from warmist to warmist?

:rolleyes:

I think this NASA researcher deals with the silly requests of absolute certainty:

And as Dr Michaels (One of the few skeptics out there) told his audience of deniers:

“So, Global warming is real, and [regarding] the second warming of the 20th century, people had something to do with it. Alright? Now get over it!”

I agree. He states the case beautifully: “That kind of simplisitic Popperism only works for idealised ‘clean’ situations where the issue is black or white, right or wrong. That just isn’t applicable to the real world where the issue is much more nuanced - how right? what is the tolerance for error?”

What is the tolerance for error? How right do the predictions need to be? I’m not asking for a simplistic Popperism; I’m asking for whatever stipulations your side wants to spell out. I’m fine with nuance; just lay it out.

I don’t know why you’re bringing this up; you can spell out any limits you please, just so long as something can falsify warmist predictions. I hope you’ll be exactly as obliging when it comes to predictions of cooling, such that folks who endorse a cooling trend will get to deploy the same it’s-not-black-or-white wiggle room about tolerance for error right back at you – but what’s the relevance now? You’ve already granted that it can be falsified in less than 20 years; who cares that some Popper-esque falsification involves oversimplification when taken from idealized clean situations to the real world?

This situation is susceptible to real-world falsification – so why bring up the rest?

Because you came in the other thread using the 1998 canard. Check the video to see how NASA reports 2005 was actually warmer.

How odd; you came in the other thread agreeing that “2005 was almost as warm as 1998.” I’d planned to cite you as my source if someone ever argued otherwise about '05; I’ll do so now, and let you argue it out.

… and that shows that you are ignoring that the issue is indeed not black or white or that it has some error bars. It is not 100% certain that 1998 was warmer than 2005, it may be a tie.

But I’m happy if you want to continue with the 1998 canard, as Dr Michaels also said (paraphrased) regarding how to properly discuss this:

“Use a debunked line like it is cooling since 1998 and you will kill us (the skeptics)”

You’re attributing the exact opposite of my position to me.

I already stated – just a few posts back, in this very thread – that I agreed. I said he stated the case beautifully, and asked what the tolerance for error was and asked how right the predictions need to be; I then specified that I wasn’t asking for a simplistic Popperism, said I was fine with nuance, and laid out then what I’m repeating now: that “I hope you’ll be exactly as obliging when it comes to predictions of cooling, such that folks who endorse a cooling trend will get to deploy the same it’s-not-black-or-white wiggle room about tolerance for error right back at you.”

How do you figure I’m ignoring that the issue is indeed not black and white? I made explicit that the exact opposite is the case.

It was certainly impressive to those who lived through it. We’ve got records of Frost Fairs on the Thames, remember? You know, solid ice, 6" or more thick. As far south as London. Regularly. And the cold wasn’t just restricted to Europe. So when reality says one thing and the reconstructions from the proxies say another, the reconstructions are clearly wrong.

Really? A number of the leaked emails discuss massaging the data. I posted one in the thread discussing the leak. And I’m British, so I don’t get Fox.

I -and he - never said he didn’t. It still doesn’t change the facts of his treatment. He didn’t sing the same song as everyone else and was vilified for it.

For that statement I was relying on the link you posted. If you think that it was unreliable, why did you post it?

Who denies or doubts that climate change is occurring? There is absolutely no doubt that it is.

The question is not whether or not it is happening, but whether the human contribution is to blame for it. It is not outside the realm of possibility that this is a naturally occurring event, and our paltry contribution to it might be little more than an exacerbating circumstance.

Meh, again just nitpicking to continue discussing… who knows.

Who said that? It seems the reconstructions are not missing the little ice age, it is just that it is not affecting the conclusions that the current temperatures are not natural.

And as the former geologist and science reporter mentions, it was not just Fox but others on the European media that concentrated on the same emails. Needless to say the debunking of that assumption, that the data was massaged still stands.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7273/full/462545a.html

That was just to keep you honest, the science is accepted by Lomborg, even I am sympathetic to some of Lomborg’s ideas.

Don’t put words in my mouth, I never said it was unreliable. And it is still dealing with an item that you also do your damnedest to ignore: The water vapor feedback levels were predicted by researchers and modelers. It was recently confirmed.