# Climate Change: hail fascism! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2008, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345 "2008-03-14T10:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/41 "2008-03-14T19:25:12Z")
“You can trust me. I’m always right, and I never lie.” – _George Tirebiter_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/42 "2008-03-14T19:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It’s worth pointing out that “a willingness to accept government by qualified expertise rather than popular election” is actually a very old idea in American political culture, going back to the early 20th Century [Progressive Movement,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_era) one slogan of which was, “There is no Democratic or Republican way to pave a street.” [/QUOTE] It is also worth noting that the accepted name for this is not fascism but [technocracy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_%28bureaucratic%29) [Fascism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is a very different phenomenon; in particular, it is something that happens when a certain kind of radical mass-based political movement comes to power. (See [_Fascism: A History,_](http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-History-Roger-Eatwell/dp/071399147X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205524152&sr=8-1) by Roger Eatwell. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/43 "2008-03-14T20:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] “You can trust me. I’m always right, and I never lie.” – _George Tirebiter_ [/QUOTE] He’s not insane! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/44 "2008-03-14T20:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It is also worth noting that the accepted name for this is not fascism but [technocracy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_%28bureaucratic%29) [Fascism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is a very different phenomenon; [/QUOTE] I disagree: the former is still a subset of the latter. It’s still authoritarian; it’s still not democratic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/45 "2008-03-14T20:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] I disagree: the former is still a subset of the latter. It’s still authoritarian; it’s still not democratic. [/QUOTE] No, fascism is a subset of authoritarianism. Technocracy is, **arguably,** a subset of authoritarianism (or arguably not), but it is not arguably a subset of fascism; if it is authoritarianism at all, it is authoritarianism of a very different kind. See, e.g., the mid-20th-Century [Technocracy movement:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement) Its goal of a state-managed economy was superficially similar to Stalinism, but it was **not** Stalinism; it involved none of the ideology of class conflict or revolution. Nor was it fascism. Furthermore, authoritarianism is the antithesis of libertarianism, **not** the antithesis of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/46 "2008-03-14T21:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Fascism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is a very different phenomenon; in particular, it is something that happens when a certain kind of radical mass-based political movement comes to power. (See [_Fascism: A History,_](http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-History-Roger-Eatwell/dp/071399147X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205524152&sr=8-1) by Roger Eatwell. [/QUOTE] This, BTW, is why I have always resisted the fashionable-on-the-left trend to characterize the Bush Administration as “fascist.” The W Admin is certainly **authoritarian,** to a degree perhaps unprecedented in American history (discussed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455418)), but at heart it is not populist but elitist (in the social as well as the institutional sense), and its rise to power lacked the essential element of streetfighting brownshirts. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/47 "2008-03-14T21:29:39Z")
But the W administration **does** meet FDR’s definition of fascism: _The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism–ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power._ ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/48 "2008-03-15T00:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Yeah, all we really have to do is get rid of that so-called ‘free market’ capitalism. [/QUOTE] That’s why Beijing has such a pristine environment. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/49 "2008-03-15T00:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] This, BTW, is why I have always resisted the fashionable-on-the-left trend to characterize the Bush Administration as “fascist.” The W Admin is certainly **authoritarian,** to a degree perhaps unprecedented in American history (discussed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455418)), but at heart it is not populist but elitist (in the social as well as the institutional sense), and its rise to power lacked the essential element of streetfighting brownshirts. [/QUOTE] The current administration harnesses the populist feelings of the religious right, stirred to a fury by right-wing talk radio. It is common for the right to castigate Ivy Leauge liberals, even though many of them are graduates of thos very institutions. W is nothing like Buckley. ---
**Author:** ![aptronym](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@aptronym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aptronym)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/50 "2008-03-15T01:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] That’s why Beijing has such a pristine environment. [/QUOTE] Damn it, 48 posts in and I get scooped. The worst countries, environmentally, are the authoritarian regimes, because people facing the burden of environmental problems have no say in government. I also find it funny that I recognize a whole bunch of posters as global warming deniers from the global warming threads in GD. Apparently, equating climate change and totalitarianism and being ignorant on science go hand-in-hand. ---
**Author:** ![Hogwash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e57/32.png) [@Hogwash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogwash)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/51 "2008-03-15T01:20:57Z")
I dunno about you guys, but I’m quite looking forward to the impending meteorological crisis. I’m a nobody, but at least in the post-apocalyptic waterworld I can be _somebody_, a lone renegade answerable to no one, impressing hot babes with my selection of canned foodstuffs. Man, that would be sweet. Bring on the Hummers, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/52 "2008-03-15T01:26:17Z")
Wow, I was SURE **BrainGlutton** was going to defend Kunstler against the sarcastic mention by **Tuckerfan**. Shows you what I know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/53 "2008-03-15T17:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=Hogwash] I dunno about you guys, but I’m quite looking forward to the impending meteorological crisis. I’m a nobody, but at least in the post-apocalyptic waterworld I can be _somebody_, a lone renegade answerable to no one, impressing hot babes with my selection of canned foodstuffs. Man, that would be sweet. Bring on the Hummers, I say. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you can trade a can of tuna for a hummer. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/54 "2008-03-15T18:14:53Z")
Look, we can argue all day over whether to blame AGW, al Qaeda, or preschool recruitment by the [homosexual cabal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Kern) —the important thing is we can all agree that this “democracy” thing has become a liability. I, for one, find this renewed spirit of bipartisanship refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/55 "2008-03-15T18:23:20Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] Personally, I’d prefer global warming over authoritarianism. If the choice is between ice caps or democracy, fuck the polar bears. [/QUOTE] Whatever the form of government, my take on all this is that we can’t stop global warming. It’s here, it’s too late, and all we can do now is plan how to deal with its inevitable effects. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/56 "2008-03-15T19:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] On a less serious note, one wonders if the authors of the listed book have ever compared the environmental records of authoritarian governments like Red China or East Germany with those of the West. What leads them to believe that the authoritarians are going to give any more of a shit about the environment than they do about human rights? [/quote] Maybe they have some sort of mathematical model that predicts good results from authoritarianism. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/57 "2008-03-15T19:54:56Z")
Now _that’s_ just cruel. 🆒 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/58 "2008-03-15T19:59:08Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Whatever the form of government, my take on all this is that we can’t stop global warming. It’s here, it’s too late, and all we can do now is plan how to deal with its inevitable effects. [/QUOTE] Well if you think it’s too late, then by all means let’s stop trying to avert it. :rolleyes: Yeah, I went for the rollyeyes. If we can’t stop it, we can stop adding to it. We can work on cutting the amount we’re driving it. Remember we’re talking a lot of ocean front cities that’ll be under water. Millions of displaced. It’ll potentially wreck the world economy for decades. Increasing international pressures could lead to warfare. It’s a big deal and we should take it as such. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/59 "2008-03-15T20:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Maybe they have some sort of mathematical model that predicts good results from authoritarianism. 😃 [/QUOTE] Or maybe they just believe it based on nothing but a gut instinct and profound ignorance that they aren’t willing or able to remedy. You know, like you disbelieving AGW. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345/60 "2008-03-15T20:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] Personally, I’d prefer global warming over authoritarianism. If the choice is between ice caps or democracy, fuck the polar bears. [/QUOTE] Cue R. Lee Ermey: "I don’t know, but I’ve been told … " “Polar bear pussy is mighty cold …” “I don’t know, but I’ve heard say …” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-change-hail-fascism/441345.md?page=4)