# Climate Denialists, by and large, know that they are lying **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2019, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054 "2019-11-27T07:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/21 "2019-11-29T14:43:48Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Just curious, what can you cite in the last, say, 2 years from Ben Shapiro that suggests he’s lying about climate change? He’s come around slower than many, but AFAIK he does not deny that climate change exists and that humans contribute to it. I don’t follow Ben Shapiro for a variety of reasons, so I just watched a couple of his most recent talks. I’d be willing to downgrade Shapiro from an obvious liar to possibly misinformed. He uses his typical debating strategy, which is a good one having been in debates clubs myself, of focusing on very particular facts, and pretending that these are the only facts that matter. For example, he loves to focus on rising sea levels, and says there’s an easy solution. People will just move. He mocks rising sea levels to some degree as saying it won’t be like the movie “The Day After Tomorrow”, yeah well no kidding, nobody is seriously saying it would be (Shapiro LOVES strawman arguments). He ignores the multitude of other issues surrounding climate change. Now, it could be he’s unaware of them, or he could be aware of them and ignores them because they’re an inconvenient truth. He seems to be of the view that the damage won’t be that bad. Again, most studies disagree with him. So is he unaware of them? Or is he aware of the additional facts and lying (in some sense by omission)? I don’t know what is in his heart, but I will say that while he’s clearly leaving out a lot of elements, but he’s isn’t grossly misrepresenting/twisting facts to his favour. My gut tells me that he’s just not looking into that deeply, and I will say that if he wants to take this public position with such a large audience, and speak on climate change in a factual way he has a moral obligation to be well-informed. Otherwise, in my opinion, he should say “This isn’t something I’ve looked into very deeply, so I’ll leave that to people better informed.” ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/22 "2019-12-04T00:39:31Z")
I’ll go with “sociopaths paid to lie” for denial propagandists. The money’s good; they probably won’t be charged with “crimes against humanity” during their lifetimes; and they don’t really like their grandkids much. Nice and easy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/23 "2019-12-05T01:36:48Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > I’ll go with “sociopaths paid to lie” for denial propagandists. The money’s good; they probably won’t be charged with “crimes against humanity” during their lifetimes; and they don’t really like their grandkids much. Nice and easy. Or they figure that by the time their sociopathic behavior really catches up with them, they’ll be dead and their kids will be rich. It’s not unreasonable to bet on the chances of rich people being able to lead essentially normal and comfortable lives in the less severely affected habitable zones of a significantly warmed world. Of course, there will be millions and millions of non-rich people whose chances of a normal and comfortable life in such circumstances will be drastically reduced. But you can’t expect lying sociopaths to care about _them_. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/24 "2019-12-05T01:55:21Z")
Climate deniers are more bullshitters than liars, as described in Frankfurt’s treatise “On Bullshit and Lying” [(abstract)](https://reasonandmeaning.com/2017/01/23/harry-frankfurt-on-bullshit-and-lying/). Main explanatory bullet points being: [ul] [li]Bullshitters do not consciously deceive.[/li][li]Bullshitters just don’t know or care about the truth.[/li][li]Bullshitters ignore or reject the distinction between truth and falsity altogether.[/li][/ul] I don’t think that Rush Limbaugh (for example) knows what the truth is, nor is he trying to hide it or delude people from it. He doesn’t care what the truth is. His goal is to get you to buy what he’s selling. His main tool is convincing you that that truth and falsehoods are matters of taste or partisan affiliation. Once you’ve bought that, he owns your brain. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/25 "2019-12-05T14:50:13Z")
I’ve just read a book by Morano, Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change. Not having really read about this subject before, I figured he was being forthright. I am sure some truly believe there is no danger in climate change, but why would ones who do misrepresent? Is it really that dire? Give me a good title to look for in my library system. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/26 "2019-12-05T15:33:35Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I’ve just read a book by Morano, Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change. Not having really read about this subject before, I figured he was being forthright. I am sure some truly believe there is no danger in climate change, but why would ones who do misrepresent? > Is it really that dire? Give me a good title to look for in my library system. We have an ongoing thread about the dire nature of climate change. And yes, it is very dire. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=885666](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=885666) Marc Morano doesn’t seem like a particularly good source. Especially since he, at a minimum, lied about the CRU email controversy (“ClimateGate”). He may have lied about other things as well since he seems to like cherry-picking from scientific studies. > **[Marc Morano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Morano)** > > Marc Morano (born 1968) is a former Republican political aide who founded and runs the website ClimateDepot.com. ClimateDepot is a project of the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT), a US non-profit organisation that promotes climate change denial. > Morano was born in Washington, D.C., and raised in McLean, Virginia. He has a bachelor's degree from George Mason University in political science. > He began his career working for Rush Limbaugh from 1992 to 1996. After 1996, he began working... The best reading materials are the IPCC reports. Since it is very long, I would suggest at least reading the summaries. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/27 "2019-12-05T16:58:47Z")
You might be better off reading [RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Marc_Morano)on Morano. Or RationalWiki on just about anything. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/28 "2019-12-05T17:48:15Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I’ve just read a book by Morano, Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change. Not having really read about this subject before, I figured he was being forthright. I am sure some truly believe there is no danger in climate change, but why would ones who do misrepresent? > Is it really that dire? Give me a good title to look for in my library system. I prefer to look at the claims first, and just by looking at the first one he makes in the first chapter: > [@](#): > > Did you know? > > -The purported 97 percent scientific consensus on climate change was “pulled from thin air” That was debunked back in 2014: > **[Climate contrarians accidentally confirm the 97% global warming consensus |...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2014/jun/05/contrarians-accidentally-confirm-global-warming-consensus)** > > Dana Nuccitelli: A new paper by GWPF's Richard Tol accidentally confirms the results of last year's 97% global warming consensus study > [@](#): > > Pulled from thin air > > As the above figure illustrates, by making this mistake, Tol effectively conjured approximately 300 papers rejecting or minimizing human-caused global warming out of thin air, with no evidence that those papers exist in reality. As a result, his consensus estimate falls apart under cursory examination. Ironically, when discussing our study in a US congressional hearing last week, Tol claimed, > > ``` > "...as far as I can see, this estimate just crumbles when you touch it ... this 97% is essentially pulled from thin air." > > ``` > > When our team corrected for Tol’s error, accounting for the ways in which the reconciliation process actually changed the ratings for each category, we found a slight increase in the consensus, from an initial 97.1% to a corrected 97.2%. Accounting for the uncertainties involved, we ultimately found the consensus is robust at 97 ± 1%. > > It’s also important to remember that our finding of 97 ± 1% consensus in climate research abstracts is consistent with the scientist author paper self-ratings in our study (97.2%), Doran & Zimmerman’s 2009 study (97%), the Anderegg et al. 2010 study (97.5%), Oreskes’ 2004 study (zero abstracts rejecting human-caused global warming in a sample of 928 papers), 80 National Academies of Science and dozens of scientific organizations from around the world endorsing the consensus (none rejecting it). And of course Richard Tol acknowledges it, > > ``` > "Published papers that seek to test what caused the climate change over the last century and half, almost unanimously find that humans played a dominant role." > > ``` > > and > > ``` > "The consensus is of course in the high nineties" > > ``` > > This is an important point, because a new George Mason University report finds that only 12% of Americans are aware that more than 90% of climate scientists have concluded humans are causing global warming. Ironically, even Tol’s flawed critique finds the consensus is higher than 88% of Americans believe. As Morano makes a big deal of this item, one has to conclude that he is not only politically incorrect, but completely incorrect. After establishing that a messenger is pulling our leg, \*\*then \*\*it is ok to shot him down. [https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Marc\_Morano](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Marc_Morano) > [@](#): > > Morano was a journalist with Cybercast News Service (CNS), which is owned by the conservative Media Research Center. CNS and Morano were the first source in May 2004 of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claims against John Kerry in the 2004 presidential election[3] and in January 2006 of similar smears against Vietnam war veteran John Murtha. > > Morano was “previously known as Rush Limbaugh’s ‘Man in Washington,’ as reporter and producer for the Rush Limbaugh Television Show, as well as a former correspondent and producer for American Investigator, the nationally syndicated TV newsmagazine.”[4] Really, why is that an “expert” on Vietnam military things is deemed now to be an expert now on climate change issues? What is clear is that he is an expert alright, but an expert on misleading people. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/29 "2019-12-05T21:44:16Z")
Get a brain, Morano! ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/30 "2019-12-07T02:34:04Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Get a brain, Morano! I think it was author Robert Bloch who said, “I have the brain of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” Merely “getting” a brain isn’t enough. Preservation is also important. Formaldehyde? Just don’t take a jar labeled “bad brain”. Only tragedy can follow. Note that a brain pickled AFTER bottling is likely sounder than one previously pickled. If pickled while still alive, a brain may slip into error, especially about climate change. Like mistaking weather for climate. Snowfall doesn’t debunk global warming. How many deniers live on low-lying islands? ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/31 "2019-12-07T18:06:36Z")
The book claims any scientists who disagree are branded heretics and not reported. Also that Al Gore uses 900 times more electricity than a family in Uganda for a year and the “powers that be” want to keep poor people in nations like that poor. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/32 "2019-12-07T19:06:02Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > The book claims any scientists who disagree are branded heretics and not reported. What Morano said was false. > **[Contrasting climate denial with evidence-based Galileo](https://skepticalscience.com/climate-skeptics-are-like-galileo.htm)** > > \Modern scientists follow the evidence-based scientific method that Galileo pioneered; climate > [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Also that Al Gore uses 900 times more electricity than a family in Uganda for a year and the “powers that be” want to keep poor people in nations like that poor. This shows that he is missing the point that Al Gore makes about being carbon neutral, that is that at the same time he could be using that electricity he is actually also using energy sources that pollute less or are green. > **[The Truth About Al Gore’s Carbon Footprint - GreenBuildingAdvisor](https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/the-truth-about-al-gores-carbon-footprint)** > > Al Gore is in the news again. His new climate change movie, An Inconvenient Sequel: Truth to Power, is in theaters now. And that means the folks who don't believe in climate change — or at least folks who don't believe that humans have any impact on... > [@](#): > > Gregory Thomas’s company, Performance Systems Development in Ithaca, NY, was brought in afterward to analyze the results, and Thomas said this about the project: “The retrofit was an electrification of a large home that also serves as an office for the former Vice President’s staff. There were natural gas boilers for heating and hot water and after the retrofit there was only cooking gas. All off-site electricity was purchased from renewable sources, no offsets for the electricity. All said and done, the carbon footprint on this house is really low.” > > Gore’s communications director told the New Republic, “Vice President Gore leads a carbon-neutral life by purchasing green energy, reducing carbon impacts, and offsetting any emissions that cannot be avoided, all within the constraints of an economy that still relies too heavily on dirty fossil fuels.” > > So, two things need to be pointed out. **Energy use isn’t the same as carbon footprint.** Yeah, we can argue about the significance of purchasing renewable energy that comes in through the same wires as the dirtiest coal-fired electricity, but we’ll save that for the comments below or another article. The other thing is that Gore’s house isn’t just a residence. He’s running an office with staff out of that building as well. > The truth about Al Gore’s carbon footprint > > **All this talk about Al Gore’s personal carbon footprint is meant to do one thing: distract. It’s a red herring. The New Republic makes the case that Al Gore’s carbon footprint doesn’t matter in an article they published last week. They’ve said it much more eloquently and completely than I’ll do here, so you really should read their piece. In short, the message put out by Al Gore and others climate change leaders is that individual actions can help on a small scale, but it’s the large scale carbon emissions that are the key.** Just like in the case of the consensus, Morano goes for discredited sources. Really, that book is only good as a doorstep. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/33 "2019-12-07T20:44:48Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > The book claims any scientists who disagree are branded heretics and not reported. Indeed. Much like any scientist who disagrees with the existence of gravity is branded a heretic and not reported. > [@](#): > > Also that Al Gore uses 900 times more electricity than a family in Uganda for a year “You protest the state of society, and yet you live in society. How hypocritical of you !” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/34 "2019-12-07T21:02:26Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > The book claims any scientists who disagree are branded heretics and not reported. When you suggest that we don’t hear from many “heretics” because they’re being covered up, that is classic conspiracy theory thinking. The likeliest reason is that there just aren’t many. To test that theory, observe that the fossil fuel industry happily gives a loud platform to any scientist that will say what they want. Also observe that you are reading a book reporting the “heretics”. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/35 "2019-12-07T22:06:15Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > The book claims… that Al Gore uses 900 times more electricity than a family in Uganda for a year and the “powers that be” want to **keep poor people in nations like that poor.** If I may tangent on that: IMHO it’s 1st-world tourists of many political aspects who want exotic, quaint, handcrafting, impoverished ethnics to remain low-paid, exotic folk crafting cheap goodies to take back home, with the exotic locale staying cheap too. An expat can vacation or live very well in countries facing economic collapse. Back to topic. Major polluters and their minions lie about product danger; truth shall not deter their survival instinct. Are we surprised? A certain biblical verse should accurately translate as, “Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.” Who takes that seriously? ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/36 "2019-12-08T02:32:34Z")
From 2012: [“Bombshell: Koch-Funded Study Finds ‘Global Warming Is Real’, ‘On The High End’ And ‘Essentially All’ Due To Carbon Pollution”](https://thinkprogress.org/bombshell-koch-funded-study-finds-global-warming-is-real-on-the-high-end-and-essentially-all-due-to-be07aeadc3de/) ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/37 "2019-12-09T15:54:41Z")
I’m glad I posted here, I tend to take most books at face value. Ignorance eradicated. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054/38 "2019-12-09T18:43:16Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I’m glad I posted here, I tend to take most books at face value. Ignorance eradicated. You shouldn’t do that. While articles in good magazines get fact checked, many or most popular books don’t. Some technical books do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-denialists-by-and-large-know-that-they-are-lying/844054.md?page=1)