# Climate Reparations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059 "2019-11-27T09:13:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/21 "2019-11-28T17:31:42Z")
Note that the Op has been wished into the cornfield. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/22 "2019-11-29T19:20:36Z")
Translators of Hebrew biblical texts into Koine Greek simplified some concepts. Herbalists, jugglers, diviners, were all labeled “witches”. A certain well-known passage should read, “Thou shalt not allow a **poisoner** to live.” Moving that from the personal to the corporate, polluting firms should be nationalized and restructured - not left to live as it is. Sure, jailing or otherwise severely punishing corporate directors and managers would be entertaining. But don’t expect a Koch perp-walk anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/23 "2019-11-29T23:53:55Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > . So maybe investing in Tesla is better than hanging the oil tycoons. Tesla’s Electric Cars Aren’t as Green as You Might Think > **[Tesla's Electric Cars Aren't as Green as You Might Think](https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/)** > > Despite their green cred, Tesla cars create pollution and carbon emissions in ways that are easily overlooked by consumers and investors. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/24 "2019-11-30T01:46:46Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > China has not only vastly surpassed other countries in CO2 emissions, they continue to increase them while others decrease them… (and so does India for that matter), so right now focus on reducing CO2 emissions… > . There is a debate if CO2 emissions should be counted by the total geography of a country or per capita. If you look at per capita, Saudi Arabia has the most followed closely by USA. China is way far behind based on per capita. India is even further behind. [List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita) There’s also debate if the sum total of CO2 emissions per country since the Industrial revolution needs to be added up when arriving at global contributions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/25 "2019-11-30T03:55:59Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > There is a debate if CO2 emissions should be counted by the total geography of a country or per capita. If you look at per capita, Saudi Arabia has the most followed closely by USA. China is way far behind based on per capita. India is even further behind. [List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita) > > There’s also debate if the sum total of CO2 emissions per country since the Industrial revolution needs to be added up when arriving at global contributions. what is the point of using per capita numbers for China? You can cut their air with a knife. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/26 "2019-11-30T04:33:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what is the point of using per capita numbers for China? You can cut their air with a knife. Not sure what you mean by that. I thought we were talking CO2 emissions. The concentration of CO2 geographically varies between 391 and 402 ppm. Cite : [Global Patterns of Carbon Dioxide](https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/82142/global-patterns-of-carbon-dioxide) Sure China is on the higher end, but so are parts of the US too. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/27 "2019-11-30T20:12:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The “China is responsible…” thing? It is like saying “Why should I put out my own house fire when my neighbor’s house fire is so much worse?” Except it’s more like ‘The city is burning, and the responsible party is burning fires in other cities, but let’s blame this guy who’s house is on fire instead!’. Because, the reality is China burns MORE CO2 than the US and EU combined…in fact, possibly more than the rest of the world combine. And, if that’s not enough, they aren’t just building new coal fired plants in China…they are building them in a bunch of other countries. Is China solely responsible? Nope. But they get a pass around here so often that it’s sickening…and not just on this board. No idea why folks just handwave away the shit they do on either the human rights side or the environmental side, but it gets old. I note the OP has been banned, but I also note that not ONE FUCKING WORD WAS SAID ABOUT CHINA. The OP wanted to string up mainly US companies and their CEOs…and, basically, one poster called out the CCP as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/28 "2019-12-03T20:38:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So at this point it is well-known that major contributors to climate change, most notably Exxon, knew about climate change back in the 1970s, and were aware of the consequences. Instead of moving away from oil and gas, they doubled down, spending massive amounts of money on disinformation campaigns akin to those of tobacco companies a decade earlier. The Scientific American has the information [here](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/). > > To what degree can or should Exxon (and the Koch brothers, and similar institutions which knew that they were exacerbating the climate crisis but decided to lie about it instead) be held responsible for their role in the climate crisis? They did not drive all those cars. They did not use all that energy. We’ve known about global warming since the 1980s but no one wanted to do anything about it. Frankly they still don’t, not if it means drastically cutting down on energy use. We will not sue our way out of this problem. We will have to science our way out. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/29 "2019-12-03T21:20:40Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > The thing is though, how can we (i.e. the ‘western’ world) insist China, India et al cut their carbon emissions without appearing massively hypocritical? I mean, our societies have benefited enormously from cheap energy over the last 150 years or so - who are we to deny them the same opportunity? I’m not denying it’s a problem, I just don’t see we have any moral high ground here. China, India, and darn near every place on the planet has had cars, trains, electricity and whatever else for the last 100 years or more. It’s not like just 20 years ago the first car drove thru Bejing. Now maybe in some countries and some areas it wasnt until close to the 40’s but most major cities and world capitals have gone modern for a long time. So that means we are all in this together and share equal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/30 "2019-12-03T21:49:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They did not drive all those cars. They did not use all that energy. > > We’ve known about global warming since the 1980s but no one wanted to do anything about it. Frankly they still don’t, not if it means drastically cutting down on energy use. > > We will not sue our way out of this problem. We will have to science our way out. Past history shows (like in the tobacco and cancer case) that change does require a combination of lawsuits \*\*after \*\*the science was clear. Then science does help with the consequences, but it is silly to leave the ones that knew early about how they were polluting the environment to get off the hook regarding the costs. This is because the deployment of the solutions will not be cheap, and it is clear that if the “leadership” that we have remains a conservative one, then the obvious result will be “solutions” that ignore the very scientists who they disparaged for so long; because one will need lots of real climate experts and real computer modelers to check if any geoengineering solutions are viable. If the leaders we get are still following industry lackeys, then the results will not be pretty. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/31 "2019-12-03T22:42:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > China, India, and darn near every place on the planet has had cars, trains, electricity and whatever else for the last 100 years or more. It’s not like just 20 years ago the first car drove thru Bejing. Now maybe in some countries and some areas it wasnt until close to the 40’s but most major cities and world capitals have gone modern for a long time. > > So that means we are all in this together and share equal responsibility. I disagree with this. It’s not true that most non-industrial countries, including China, were major contributors to GhG emissions, especially from automobiles, unless we are just talking the last 20 years. Before that, they weren’t because they couldn’t be…they simply didn’t have the infrastructure or wealth to have a large enough number of cars TOO cause problems. The trouble is, now, today, China specifically gets a pass. And that’s total bullshit. They aren’t an emerging power. They aren’t developing. And they pollute more than the US and EU combined wrt CO2 emissions…and they are rising, not dropping or even stabilizing. Worse, it’s not even just in China…they are building coal powered plants in many, many other countries. They are exporting their rising CO2 emissions. We are all in this, no doubt. The US certainly gets the lions share of the blame by everyone, and has in fact contributed a lot more to the problem. But the US is actually, despite our idiot president, slowly lowering our emissions. We could do a lot more, but we are doing something. China isn’t…they are going full speed ahead. And if we are going to play the blame game I would like to see people acknowledge that right now, today, China is the main problem wrt global emissions, and that the problem is getting worse every year as they ramp up their emissions AND export them. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s fucking ridiculous that no one calls them out in threads like this and the the fucking OP didn’t even mention them. And that gets a pass. Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/32 "2019-12-04T02:08:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We are all in this, no doubt. The US certainly gets the lions share of the blame by everyone, and has in fact contributed a lot more to the problem. But the US is actually, despite our idiot president, slowly lowering our emissions. We could do a lot more, but we are doing something. China isn’t…they are going full speed ahead. And if we are going to play the blame game I would like to see people acknowledge that right now, today, China is the main problem wrt global emissions, and that the problem is getting worse every year as they ramp up their emissions AND export them. Like I said in my earlier post, it’s fucking ridiculous that no one calls them out in threads like this and the the fucking OP didn’t even mention them. And that gets a pass. Fuck that. :dubious: Actually many that I know do take China to task, [just because one does notice progress](https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-emissions-could-peak-10-years-earlier-than-paris-climate-pledge), it does not mean that they get a pass; on the contrary, many do ask for better efforts, although if we had a better leader in place more pressure regarding more change from countries like China could be possible. As for still doing something with “our idiot president”; no, there no buts when a dolt is at the helm: [https://psmag.com/environment/u-s-emissions-are-rising-under-trump](https://psmag.com/environment/u-s-emissions-are-rising-under-trump) > [@](#): > > U.S. Emissions Are Rising Under Trump > The Trump administration has been systematically rolling back environmental regulations, and now carbon emissions are up across every sector in America. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/33 "2019-12-04T14:57:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > just because one does notice progress, I noticed that they were [up 4% in the first HALF of 2019](https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-why-chinas-co2-emissions-grew-4-during-first-half-of-2019). And these are both coming from the OFFICIAL stats the CCP puts out, so massive grain of salt. You are STILL handwaving and excusing them with shit like this. > [@](#): > > although if we had a better leader in place more pressure regarding more change from countries like China could be possible. I agree we need a better leader. But whoever our leader is, no one can force China to do what the CCP doesn’t want to do. They talk about what they might do, and folks eat it up. But the reality is that their CO2 emissions are going up steadily, year by year, by large amounts…and, again, this is from their official (which means bullshit) statistics. Unofficially it might be as much as double what they are reporting. AND, to put the cherry on top, China is building many, many coal plants (the world ‘[hundreds](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/29/716347646/why-is-china-placing-a-global-bet-on-coal)’ is tossed around) for other countries as part of their belt and road. That CO2, of course, isn’t counted towards China, though it should be. Feel free to show me how many the US or EU are building in other countries. I couldn’t find any, but I’m sure there must be a few. As for the rise in US emissions, according to [this](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38133) it rose (slightly) in 2018, but is projected to drop in 2019 and 2020. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t…but I can tell you, it won’t freaking rise 4% in the first half of this year! I’m not saying the US shouldn’t get dinged. It DID rise after all, and I’d say that putting the blame on Trump is warranted. He’s a fucking idiot. But notice how you immediately went for a cite that seemed to show China is actually doing really well (headline “China may peak up to a decade earlier than the nation has pledged under the Paris Agreement, according to a new study”), while the reality is much, much different. And in both cases, neither is using the ACTUAL figures, because, well, the CCP doesn’t give those out. So everything has to be extrapolated. Even using their bullshit figures, it’s up, however. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/34 "2019-12-04T16:54:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I noticed that they were [up 4% in the first HALF of 2019](https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-why-chinas-co2-emissions-grew-4-during-first-half-of-2019). And these are both coming from the OFFICIAL stats the CCP puts out, so massive grain of salt. You are STILL handwaving and excusing them with shit like this. Well thanks for doing what many fail to do, as in checking the cites; of course, then the other point was spectacularly missed, just like in the previous cites, I’m not hand waving what the Chinese do since I do expect others to check the cites, so drop that inaccuracy. > [@XT](#): > > I agree we need a better leader. But whoever our leader is, no one can force China to do what the CCP doesn’t want to do. Well that reminded me of a past item regarding China from a past debate. You actually did hand wave about the pollution reporting in the capital of China and other cities coming from American Embassies and consulates. What you missed there was an actual example of not excusing China for what it was doing and that there are ways indeed to make China do the proper thing. (It should not be needed, but one has to remark here that still more needs to be done… that should not be needed to be remarked, but in this case it is needed to be said because more silly remarks about leaving China off the hook are bound to follow, it seems.) > **[Opinion: How the US Embassy Tweeted to Clear Beijing's Air](https://www.wired.com/2015/03/opinion-us-embassy-beijing-tweeted-clear-air/)** > > When the U.S. Embassy in Beijing started tweeting data from an air-quality monitor, no one could have anticipated its far-reaching consequences. > [@](#): > > When the US Embassy in Beijing started tweeting data from an air-quality monitor, no one could have anticipated its far-reaching consequences: It triggered profound change in China’s environmental policy, advanced air-quality science in some of the world’s most polluted cities, and prompted similar efforts in neighboring countries. > > … > > In 2008, everyone knew Beijing was polluted, but we didn’t know how much. That year, the US Embassy in Beijing installed a rooftop air-quality monitor that cost the team about as much as a nice car. The device began automatically tweeting out data every hour to inform US citizens of the pollution’s severity > > In 2010, it became official: Beijing’s air quality was deemed “crazy bad” by the Embassy when the pollution exceeded the bounds of the EPA’s air quality index. This inadvertently undiplomatic tweet reached a growing audience via third-party apps that circumvented China’s twitter firewall. People were attracted by the reliability of the Embassy’s data, which helped them make daily decisions—whether it was safe to let their children play outside, for example. > This data often painted a bleaker picture than did the Chinese official pronouncements. Beijing residents, dissatisfied with the crudeness of China’s air quality monitoring efforts, put pressure on Chinese officials to acknowledge the scale of the problem and start taking proactive measures to tackle it. > > At first, the Chinese government pushed back and pressured the Embassy to stop releasing the data, saying that “such readings were illegal”. Fortunately, the Embassy stood its ground. Eventually, the Chinese government relented and began implementing an effective monitoring system of its own. By the beginning of 2013, it had succeeded in setting up around 500 PM2.5 stations in over 70 cities. Later that year, completing its about-face, China pledged hundreds of billions of dollars for cleaning the air and began to implement pollution reduction targets for major cities > [@XT](#): > > They talk about what they might do, and folks eat it up. Again, no. > [@XT](#): > > But the reality is that their CO2 emissions are going up steadily, year by year, by large amounts…and, again, this is from their official (which means bullshit) statistics. Unofficially it might be as much as double what they are reporting. AND, to put the cherry on top, China is building many, many coal plants (the world ‘[hundreds](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/29/716347646/why-is-china-placing-a-global-bet-on-coal)’ is tossed around) for other countries as part of their belt and road. That CO2, of course, isn’t counted towards China, though it should be. Feel free to show me how many the US or EU are building in other countries. I couldn’t find any, but I’m sure there must be a few. > > As for the rise in US emissions, according to [this](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38133) it rose (slightly) in 2018, but is projected to drop in 2019 and 2020. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t…but I can tell you, it won’t freaking rise 4% in the first half of this year! Since there are no ways to prevent the yahoo from dropping more regulations (and the Republicans are complicit on this too), the most likely thing is to expect a rise in the USA. As pointed before, what China is doing is not good; but the accords that were made do acknowledge that we can not go cold turkey or back to the stone age as many right wingers like to claim that environmentalists want all to do. Since that is not the case, pressure needs to continue and looking at the big picture China’s emissions are actually not growing much now, China is still then more likely to hit their accorded targets ahead of schedule. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-carbon/china-co2-emissions-to-peak-in-2022-ahead-of-schedule-government-researcher-idUSKCN1VQ1K0](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-carbon/china-co2-emissions-to-peak-in-2022-ahead-of-schedule-government-researcher-idUSKCN1VQ1K0) And again, trust but verify, and continue the pressure for them to do it even better. \> and again yet another item where there should be no need to remark that, but it needs to be over here. > [@XT](#): > > I’m not saying the US shouldn’t get dinged. It DID rise after all, and I’d say that putting the blame on Trump is warranted. He’s a fucking idiot. But notice how you immediately went for a cite that seemed to show China is actually doing really well (headline “China may peak up to a decade earlier than the nation has pledged under the Paris Agreement, according to a new study”), while the reality is much, much different. And in both cases, neither is using the ACTUAL figures, because, well, the CCP doesn’t give those out. So everything has to be extrapolated. Even using their bullshit figures, it’s up, however. However, the reality is that thanks to past pressure, there are more accurate numbers than before. This does not deny anything that was pointed out before, only that you seem to fall for the echoes of the denier conservative media narrative that is now reaching for bogus criticisms such as 'You proponents of change are giving the Chinese a break" when that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/35 "2019-12-04T17:28:22Z")
One more item I forgot, that very passive/aggressive move by the US embassy took place during the Obama days. Had the current Agent Orange been president then it is more likely that he would had folded like zhezhi. (That is how the Chinese call the art of paper folding that in Japanese is referred as Origami) ---
**Author:** ![Willcross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Willcross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Willcross)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059/36 "2019-12-10T23:18:45Z")
If the info on global warming had been made fully public in 1960, what different course of action would we have taken as a nation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/climate-reparations/844059.md?page=1)