# Clinton "realists" vs. Sanders "idealists" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615 "2016-01-29T21:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/161 "2016-04-14T19:50:26Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Both alarmist and vastly overstated. Written from a Sanderesque POV of course (polling at roughly 13% up is “barely hanging on” in NY? Really?) but still it does represent the anti-Clinton sentiment now fanned that will need an active healing process before the general. Yes, Sanders condemned it later, but he _is_ being introduced by people calling Clinton and company corporate Democratic whores to cheers of approval from the crowd. Now I do believe that of the 42% that have voted for Sanders so far only a small fraction are the hardcore who think of the rest of the part as neoliberal scum and corporate whores. BG’s link overstates by far. But I would not want to understate either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/162 "2016-04-14T19:56:25Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Sanders isn’t loyal to the public, he just panders to the typically middle and upper middle class white suburbanite and collegiate inumerates who think the worlds biggest problems are fluoride, mercury in vaccines, conventional medicine, GMOs, chemtrails, radiation from Fukishima, and Monsanto. Somehow I never seem to hear about those things when Sanders speaks. What he mostly talks about is wealth inequality, etc., and that **is** a sign of loyalty to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/163 "2016-04-14T22:33:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Somehow I never seem to hear about those things when Sanders speaks. What he mostly talks about is wealth inequality, etc., and that **is** a sign of loyalty to the public. No, it’s a sign that he is a demagogue. There isn’t a lot to do about the lack of wealth a typical Bernie Bro or Sanders voter in Vermont. They tend to be so gullible or stupid that they waste money on stupid shit like lottery tickets, organic food, worthless social justice warrior college degrees, or alternative medicine. Some people should have no wealth. Money is simply a ledger that keeps track of how much society is in debt to you for. Some spend every bit of surplus that they can get their hands on. It’s their right to make dumb decisions that lead the them being broke. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/164 "2016-04-14T23:02:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Written from a Sanderesque POV of course (polling at roughly 13% up is “barely hanging on” in NY? Really?) I suppose if you start from February polling and include that ridiculous Emerson poll that showed her up 45pts then she’s lost all kinds of support. The stability of the polling since the first of April of course suggests that earlier polls didn’t represent a trend so much as they represented a need for better polling which includes polling closer to the election date. If there was a huge trend of Clinton shedding 50% of her support in March, it wouldn’t have immediately leveled off come April 1st. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/165 "2016-04-14T23:17:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, it’s a sign that he is a demagogue. If that’s a demagogue, then we need a whole Congress of them. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/166 "2016-04-15T00:43:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If that’s a demagogue, then we need a whole Congress of them. Great, let’s be like Venezuela but without the world’s largest oil reserve. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/167 "2016-04-15T00:49:46Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Great, let’s be like Venezuela but without the world’s largest oil reserve. I’ll settle for being like Sweden on a continental scale. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/168 "2016-04-15T01:46:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll settle for being like Sweden on a continental scale. So, one of the most expensive places to live in the world, where new college grads have the [highest debt to income ratio](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/)in the world, on a continental scale? It’s fanciful to think it is possible to scale that system over such a huge area and diverse population, even if it _was_ desirable. It just won’t work here. [It’s not even working well there.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42jpuXJPk0w) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/169 "2016-04-15T02:16:35Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, it’s a sign that he is a demagogue. > > There isn’t a lot to do about the lack of wealth a typical Bernie Bro or Sanders voter in Vermont. They tend to be so gullible or stupid that they waste money on stupid shit like lottery tickets, organic food, worthless social justice warrior college degrees, or alternative medicine. Some people should have no wealth. Money is simply a ledger that keeps track of how much society is in debt to you for. Some spend every bit of surplus that they can get their hands on. It’s their right to make dumb decisions that lead the them being broke. Not what the data shows, Vermont is 4th among states with \*\*the least \*\*amount of bankruptcies per capita. 115 per 100,000 population. > **[Personal Bankruptcy Filings By State](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/highest-personal-bankruptcy-rates-in-the-us-by-state.html)** > > When it comes to areas with the highest rates of personal bankruptcy filings in the U.S. the South reigns supreme. For statewide rates, we find Tennessee in first place, followed by neighboring Georgia and Alabama. The top ten with more bankruptcies? Almost all Red states, with only one battleground state (Nevada) and one blue (Illinois). The worst is Tennessee with **610** per 100,000, so if there is some logic on what you are talking about we really need to get rid of Bob Corker and Lamar Alexander, both of them Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/170 "2016-04-18T21:51:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Somehow I never seem to hear about those things when Sanders speaks. What he mostly talks about is wealth inequality, etc., and that **is** a sign of loyalty to the public. What does Clinton say that makes you claim her first loyalty is to Wall Street? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/171 "2016-04-19T05:01:46Z")
Interesting quote I just came across: _It is not the enemy in front that I fear, but the division which too often makes itself manifest in progressive ranks - it is that division, that dispersion of forces, that internecine struggle in the moments of great emergency, in the moments when the issue hangs in the balance - it is that division which, I fear, may weaken our efforts and may perhaps deprive us of success otherwise within our grasp._ - Winston Churchill, May 4, 1908 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/172 "2016-04-19T17:56:50Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > What does Clinton say that makes you claim her first loyalty is to Wall Street? Nothing in her campaign speeches, but google “Hillary Clinton ties to Wall Street” and the results will leave little doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/173 "2016-04-19T19:40:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nothing in her campaign speeches, but google “Hillary Clinton ties to Wall Street” and the results will leave little doubt. You are subtly shifting the goal posts. Claiming someone has ties to an industry is not the same as claiming their “loyalty” lies with that industry ahead of the people. By that logic, Sanders, along with Clinton, is loyal to the [defense industry](https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016/04/01/19496/defense-contractor-employees-give-most-money-hillary-clinton). Pox on both their houses, right? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/174 "2016-04-24T17:05:09Z")
Back to the original op, “realists” vs “idealists” or perhaps even “revolutionaries” vs “incrementalists” … Interesting comments on the broad subject [from Obama](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/us/obama-says-movements-like-black-lives-matter-cant-just-keep-on-yelling.html?hpw&rref=us&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0) in today’s NYT. Before clicking, who is he specifically talking about do you think? > [@](#): > > “Once you’ve highlighted an issue and brought it to people’s attention and shined a spotlight, and elected officials or people who are in a position to start bringing about change are ready to sit down with you, then you can’t just keep on yelling at them,” Mr. Obama said. > > “And you can’t refuse to meet because that might compromise the purity of your position,” he continued. “The value of social movements and activism is to get you at the table, get you in the room, and then to start trying to figure out how is this problem going to be solved.” > > Mr. Obama began his career as a community organizer working on local initiatives in poor neighborhoods in Chicago. Sometimes, he said, solving a problem means accepting a series of partial solutions. > > “You then have a responsibility to prepare an agenda that is achievable, that can institutionalize the changes you seek, and to engage the other side, and occasionally to take half a loaf that will advance the gains that you seek, understanding that there’s going to be more work to do, but this is what is achievable at this moment,” he said. I am really going to miss this president. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/175 "2016-04-24T18:16:23Z")
The next one has the same approach. But with a stiffer spine and less naivete. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/176 "2016-04-26T00:28:05Z")
[BTW, Sanders is not the only progressive candidate challenging the Dem establishment this year.](http://inthesetimes.com/features/bernie_sanders_democrats_political_revolution_candidates.html) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/177 "2016-04-26T03:21:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [BTW, Sanders is not the only progressive candidate challenging the Dem establishment this year.](http://inthesetimes.com/features/bernie_sanders_democrats_political_revolution_candidates.html) Some interesting things in that article. A few lines: > [@](#): > > On the eve of the Iowa caucus, when asked how they describe themselves, 43 percent of Democratic caucusgoers chose “socialist.” Take a moment to let that sink in. Moment taken. I think the author is wanting the take-away to be that socialism is a popular identifier among Democratic voters. But I think instead the take-away is how unreflective of the general Democratic voting population, let alone the general voting population, caucusgoers are. > [@](#): > > For young people, the devil they don’t know is looking better and better than the devil they do—and that sentiment is fueling insurgent challengers. Agreed that that is the main fuel. The attraction is less what that unknown devil is than that it is a different thing. > [@](#): > > “It’s easy for candidates to say they’re for overturning Citizens United, but it’s really meaningless when they’re also taking so much corporate and dark money that they’ll never follow through,” says Tim Canova Well, no. It’s really meaningless, period. It is just something easy to say. Which isn’t to say it can never be done but the actual path will require [some patient dedication to a long game](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/how-to-reverse-citizens-united/471504/). > [@The Atlantic](#): > > it will not be through dramatic measures like the current proposals to pass a constitutional amendment overturning Citizens United. Nor will it be through a quixotic presidential campaign, like Lawrence Lessig’s short-lived run on a platform devoted almost exclusively to electoral reform. Constitutional law is more typically changed through a long process of smaller, incremental steps. … When federal constitutional law is against you, you must look for alternative forums in which to press your case. And as with guns and family relations, most of the laws regarding elections are made by the states. … Get some power at the state legislature levels, voting in all elections, not just Presidential ones, and progress can be made. Will this “revolution” deliver that day in and day out putting miles in the bank (to use the marathon training analogy)? That’s the biggest question really. So let’s look at a couple of those candidates. Canova primarying Wasserman-Schultz. That should be the cage match of a progressive taking on the establishment of the party. Very liberal district and poster child for everything the progressive movement is against within the the party. If the movement cannot prevail there then where? Well maybe NY. Zephyr Teachout has been fundraising very well and is one of the three progressives that Sanders has now identified he will actually help fundraise for. Sanders may have done poorly in NY but he won that district. Still, winning the general is not a given. The second progressive that Sanders has agreed to support is also already strong: [Lucy Flores](http://www.lucyflores.com/2016/flores-retains-strong-lead-in-democratic-primary/) in Nevada has been polling with a 20 point margin pretty much since last June. Hopefully a November win too! His third labelled helpee is Pramila Jayapal, running for very liberal Jim McDermott’s seat as he retires - Seattle area. Good shot but not much of a change from what they’ve had. Those multiple other challengers listed in the article he is not supporting so far? I haven’t researched all of them but did one at random, Susannah Randolph. Soto seems favored in the primary but the district is fairly solidly D. If she pulls it off she has a good chance of winning. Not quite the anti-establishment candidate though. She was the current representative’s district director and her husband is the Tax Collector of Orange County. [Her sales pitch?](http://floridapolitics.com/archives/203009-203009) > [@](#): > > What sets me apart from the other candidates? I have a graphical knowledge of the (congressional) job and an understanding of serving in that office in a way that helps people … How you get both sides to work together is the key … It’s how you can solve problems while in the minority party … Sounds like a realist, an incrementalist to me. Another listed in that article is [Tom Fiegen](http://observer.com/2015/11/tom-fiegen-bernie-sanders-biggest-ally-and-candidate-for-u-s-senate/), an early and enthusiastic supporter of Sanders in Iowa, hoping to be the Democratic standard bearer against Grassley. But not one of the three that Sanders has said he’d help so far. Of course the race is considered safely Republican. Yet another, [Jamie Raskin](http://inthesetimes.com/features/bernie_sanders_democrats_jamie_raskin.html) in MD? Did not endorse Sanders, has the support of the Democratic establishment, and is proud of it. _This_ is the evidence of “a wave of candidates committed to a bold set of progressive ideas and a mass of voters with the political will to elect them”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615/178 "2016-04-27T17:48:46Z")
[Bernie’s new mission: Democrats can stop worrying about Sanders tearing the party apart on his way out.](http://www.salon.com/2016/04/27/bernies_new_mission_democrats_can_stop_worrying_about_sanders_tearing_the_party_apart_on_his_way_out/) > [@](#): > > Thus the questions about Sanders’ strategy moving forward are all the more pressing. If he can’t win the nomination, it’s worth asking what his goal will be? Tuesday night we got an answer to this question in the form of a statement released by the Sanders campaign. What it amounts to is a tacit admission that Sanders can’t win, and indeed that winning isn’t the strategy any longer. > > Sanders writes: > > > [@](#): > > > > “The people in every state in this country should have the right to determine who they want as president and what the agenda of the Democratic Party should be. That’s why we are in this race until the last vote is cast. That is why this campaign is going to the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia with as many delegates as possible to fight for a progressive party platform that calls for a $15 an hour minimum wage, an end to our disastrous trade policies, a Medicare-for-all-health care system, breaking up Wall Street financial institutions, ending fracking in our country, making public colleges and universities tuition free and passing a carbon tax so we can effectively address the planetary crisis of climate change.” > > \ > > If you read between the lines his statement Tuesday night, however, the meaning is clear: We can’t win but we have an enormous amount of leverage and we intend to use that leverage to shape the party’s platform. Team Sanders can read the writing on the wall: they know they can’t close the delegate gap at this point. But they can take their substantial number of delegates and their historical fundraising operation and their two-million-person donor list to the Democratic establishment and dare them to ignore the issues on which Sanders built his movement. > > The good news is that Democrats can stop worrying about Sanders setting fire to the party on his way out. This statement along with reports that Sanders plans to “soften” his attacks on Hillary and instead focus on the core issues ought to assuage any fears that he will resort to mudslinging. Frankly, the concerns about Sanders going negative were misguided to begin with. He’s been tough but he hasn’t crossed any lines, and he’s run as open and positive a campaign as you’ll find at this level of politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-realists-vs-sanders-idealists/744615.md?page=8)