# Clinton Slips Leash; Jennings Critical
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 20, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807 "2004-11-20T06:32:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/221 "2004-11-27T09:51:33Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> He went out with higher approval ratings than Reagan.
That’s not quite right. In practically any poll, [65 to 64](http://uspolitics.about.com/library/bl_historical_approval.htm) is a tie.
---
### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/222 "2004-11-27T09:56:44Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> That’s not quite right. In practically any poll, [65 to 64](http://uspolitics.about.com/library/bl_historical_approval.htm) is a tie.
While it may be a statistical dead heat, it’s still accurate to say one beat the other in terms of the polled numbers.
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/223 "2004-11-27T10:06:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> While it may be a statistical dead heat, it’s still accurate to say one beat the other in terms of the polled numbers.
No it isn’t. It’s like saying that “65 plus-or-minus X” is greater than “64 plus-or-minus Y”. No one knows what X or Y is, but if X = 1.2 and Y = 2.3, then the statement is false.
---
### Author:  [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/224 "2004-11-27T12:12:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> It’s like saying that “65 plus-or-minus X” is greater than “64 plus-or-minus Y”. No one knows what X or Y is, but if X = 1.2 and Y = 2.3, then the statement is false.
Well, it is and it isn’t, since no matter what the results, the statement is inherently probabilistic. The “plus-or-minus” error margin is a crude way of describing a probability distribution, and thus most likely represents a bell curve. As long as mean\_X is greater than mean\_Y, P(X\>Y) \> 0.5. I think in your example it’s something like a 62% chance that the first variable is greater (assuming the plus-or-minus figures are the variances of two normal distributions).
Of course, I agree that this isn’t really that significant, and in real life the error margins are even greater than you describe. But I don’t think “true” and “false” really apply here…
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/225 "2004-11-27T16:03:20Z")
They apply conditionally, as I said, **if** the X and Y are known. Perhaps of greater significance in comparing the legacies of the two presidents is the [June 18-20 AP-Ipsos poll](http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/wire.ssf?/base/news/1087895753308120.xml), which found that 70% of Americans believe that history will judge Reagan superior to Clinton. That’s well outside any error margin. The same poll found that 83% had a favorable view of Reagan, while only 41% regarded Clinton favorably.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/226 "2004-11-27T16:16:14Z")
Clinton consistently had higher approval ratings than Reagan throughout his entire presidency. The poll you link to does not say that Reagan _deserves_ to be remembered more fondly only that they suspect that he will be. It is not a direct question about the responents? personal opinions about each president but about what they believe the opinions of _others_ will be in some undefined future.
As a matter of fact, I think they’re wrong. As time goes by, Clinton is becoming more popular and his presidency is more well regarded in retrospect. You can’t argue with 8 years of peace and prosperity.
Clinton also left office with something else that Reagan did not- a little thing called a “bufget surplus.” We’ll never see that again.
---
### Author:  [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/227 "2004-11-27T16:23:22Z")
Yes, but you have to factor in the quality of judgment _Americans_ have shown in the recent years.
Do that, and you’ll appreciate _History_ will be far fonder of C than R.
---
### Author:  [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/228 "2004-11-27T16:26:56Z")
You are actually showing milwhatever cites?
That was a complete waste of time.
He does not let the facts get in the way of his asinine statements.
---
### Author:  [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/229 "2004-11-27T18:58:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Clinton also left office with something else that Reagan did not- a little thing called a “bufget surplus.”
If “bufget” were a word, I’d have no doubt that Clinton would have a surplus of it. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/230 "2004-11-27T19:01:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> You can’t argue with 8 years of peace and prosperity.
Yeah. With Reagan, we were mired in Grenada for hours, and the market value of all American assets [only doubled](http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2004/06/07/cz_rk_0607reagan.html).
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/231 "2004-11-27T19:03:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> The poll you link to does not say that Reagan _deserves_ to be remembered more fondly only that they suspect that he will be. It is not a direct question about the responents? personal opinions about each president but about what they believe the opinions of _others_ will be in some undefined future.
To repeat, “The same poll found that 83% had a favorable view of Reagan, while only 41% regarded Clinton favorably.”
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/232 "2004-11-27T20:17:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Yeah. With Reagan, we were mired in Grenada for hours, and the market value of all American assets [only doubled](http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2004/06/07/cz_rk_0607reagan.html).
The national debt quadrupled, deficits exploded, we saw a huge separation of rich and poor while the middle class shrank,we saw double digit unemployment and stagnant wages.
And let’s not forget that Reagan supported terrorism on two different continents by propping up the Taliban, Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein and the Contras.
We are now paying the piper for all those despotic regimes created by Reagan in the 80’s.
I have too much class to even mention Reagan’s treasonous activities in Iran-Contra.
> [@](#):
>
> To repeat, “The same poll found that 83% had a favorable view of Reagan, while only 41% regarded Clinton favorably.”
Well Reagan just died. That poll doesn’t mean very much right now. Plus Americans are morons. History will remember Clinton as a much better POTIS simply because that is an objectively true fact.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/233 "2004-11-27T20:21:16Z")
One more thing: Grenada was a completely unnecessary exercise in wagging the dog. It was nothing but a contrived event designed solely to draw attention away from Reagan’s own culpability in the bombing of the US Embassy in Beirut.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/234 "2004-11-27T20:52:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> To repeat, “The same poll found that 83% had a favorable view of Reagan, while only 41% regarded Clinton favorably.”
You know how dumb the average guy is? Well, half the people are even dumber than _that_!
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/235 "2004-11-27T22:04:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> The national debt quadrupled,
But its highest ever was under Emperor Roosevelt (120%). Truman’s national debt was also higher than Reagan’s. Even Nixon was better than Clinton. ([Cite](http://zfacts.com/p/318.html).)
> [@](#):
>
> deficits exploded,
Of course, Clinton had the benefit of foreign investment: “In the 1990s overseas investors had a voracious appetite for U.S. stocks and bonds that fueled demand for the dollar and made it easy to finance the deficit.” — Linda Bilmes, [Washington Post](http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/opeds/2004/bilmes_reagan_wp_021004.htm). And of course, Carter’s stagflation (high unemployment and inflation) bellowed up into a full-blown recession, the effects of which were [dramatic](http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_04_3_muris.pdf).
> [@](#):
>
> we saw a huge separation of rich and poor while the middle class shrank,
Actually, the middle class was [shrinking _upward_](http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/prosper/fig-1.gif) — more middle class were moving into wealthy.
> [@](#):
>
> we saw double digit unemployment and stagnant wages.
No, we didn’t. The unemployment figures were 9.5% for 1982 and 1983 (the highest years), and then they declined. Generally, it is expected that unemployment is the last figure to improve in a major recovery because the highest expenses a business has is employees and their benefits and taxes. Businesses lay off people early in a downturn, and naturally are slow to hire them back until an expansion is well under way.
> [@](#):
>
> And let’s not forget that Reagan supported terrorism on two different continents by propping up the Taliban, Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein and the Contras.
Yeah, and Clinton took on another continent, supporting Museveni in Uganda, with whom he hosted a summit that drew in dictators from the Congo, Ethiopia, Kenya, Rwanda and Tanzania. Few presidents haven’t supported terrorism, beginning with post Revolution reprisals against the Southeastern Indians for fighting with the British against their occupiers.
> [@](#):
>
> We are now paying the piper for all those despotic regimes created by Reagan in the 80’s.
The way I see it, we’re paying the piper for Bush’s hegemony.
> [@](#):
>
> I have too much class to even mention Reagan’s treasonous activities in Iran-Contra.
And I to mention Clinton’s treasonous activities in China, Cuba, and North Korea.
> [@](#):
>
> Well Reagan just died. That poll doesn’t mean very much right now.
Hey, you brought up polls.
> [@](#):
>
> Plus Americans are morons.
They were sufficiently bright when you cited Clinton’s approval ratings upon leaving office, were they not?
> [@](#):
>
> History will remember Clinton as a much better POTIS simply because that is an objectively true fact.
President of the Indecent States? 😉
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/236 "2004-11-27T22:09:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> One more thing: Grenada was a completely unnecessary exercise in wagging the dog.
So, you would have advised allowing the Cuban supported thugs to consumate their bloody coup and establish a satellite Communist state? And you would have ignored threats to American students there?
---
### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/237 "2004-11-27T22:19:51Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> You are actually showing milwhatever cites?
> That was a complete waste of time.
> He does not let the facts get in the way of his asinine statements.
Well, we will see what happens.
I’ve not debated with him before, I don’t think, so we’ll see what his reaction to overwhelming evidence is.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/238 "2004-11-27T22:20:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> So, you would have advised allowing the Cuban supported thugs to consumate their bloody coup and establish a satellite Communist state?
Sure. None of _my_ business. 🆒
> [@](#):
>
> And you would have ignored threats to American students there?
Absolutely. Nobody forced them to go there.
---
### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/239 "2004-11-27T22:21:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> You know how dumb the average guy is? Well, half the people are even dumber than _that_!
Don’t just eat that hamburger, eat the hell out of it.
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807/240 "2004-11-27T22:25:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Sure. None of _my_ business. 🆒
I agree with you on this one.
> [@](#):
>
> Absolutely. Nobody forced them to go there.
But not on this one. American citizens deserve to have the rights that God or nature gave them secured by their government, no matter where they go.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807.md?page=11)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-slips-leash-jennings-critical/275807.md?page=13)