# Clinton v Trump: How did it end up like this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 26, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968 "2016-08-26T00:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/21 "2016-08-26T02:35:11Z")
[A rational (fact-based) discussion on Trump v Clinton](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=800982) [Sanders/Warren 2016](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=799460) [Dems and Pubs, do you want your candidate campaigning with your Senators?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=799461) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/22 "2016-08-26T02:37:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > On the contrary, I know she’s very popular with Democrats even though I don’t understand why. My question is more about with this being a year without running an incumbent why Dems like Feinstein or Cuomo or McAuliffe didn’t take the opportunity to run. Because Clinton would have beat them very badly. Why? Because Clinton is very popular with Democrats. You just said so. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/23 "2016-08-26T02:38:58Z")
If Trump wins you will \*really \*be wondering how it all came to this. Can’t remember who said this originally, (paraphrasing) “Hillary will be a bad president but within normal parameters of bad presidents. Trump will be a bad president beyond normal parameters of bad presidents.” ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/24 "2016-08-26T02:44:10Z")
[P. J. O’Rourke](http://www.npr.org/2016/05/09/477339063/conservative-author-pj-orourke-reluctantly-backs-clinton). “I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises. It’s the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she’s way behind in second place. She’s wrong about absolutely everything, but she’s wrong within normal parameters.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/25 "2016-08-26T02:49:16Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Because Clinton would have beat them very badly. Why? Because Clinton is very popular with Democrats. You just said so. True but aren’t other Democrats as popular as she is? I’m not being obstinate. I just don’t understand how your side of the aisle has Hillary leaps and bounds above other popular Democratic politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/26 "2016-08-26T02:49:55Z")
Hillary was always going to be the Democratic front-runner, no surprises there. Sanders never came close to beating her. As for Trump, he got the nomination only because there were 15 other Republican candidates jockeying with each other and splitting the vote. If he had run one-on-one against only one or two other candidates, no way he gets the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/27 "2016-08-26T03:09:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > True but aren’t other Democrats as popular as she is? No. Except for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/28 "2016-08-26T03:17:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Clinton is soundly beating Trump at the polls. Trump soundly beat all of his Republican rivals. So why assume Clinton wouldn’t have beaten any of those other Republicans as well? The transitive property of inequalities does not apply to politics. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/29 "2016-08-26T03:26:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The transitive property of inequalities does not apply to politics. Exactly. It’s like sports - the 16-0 Patriots beat everyone they encountered in the 2007 season, yet lost to the 10-6 Giants in the Super Bowl. Why? Because the Giants had perhaps the best pass rush of any team they faced, and that was the Patriots’ Kryptonite, since New England’s offense depended heavily on Tom Brady having time in the pocket. Hillary’s Kryptonite is a \*\*\*good \*\*\*anti-establishment maverick. Trump is a \*ridiculous, lousy \*anti-establishment maverick, that’s why he’s losing. But if there were a smart, savvy, popular, younger, good-looking Republican anti-establishment maverick who was able to lure Bernie supporters, he or she might be leading Hillary by double digits right now. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/30 "2016-08-26T03:33:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As for Trump, he got the nomination only because there were 15 other Republican candidates jockeying with each other and splitting the vote. If he had run one-on-one against only one or two other candidates, no way he gets the nomination. He seemed to do pretty well when it _was_ down to just a couple others. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/31 "2016-08-26T03:41:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Hillary’s Kryptonite is a \*\*\*good \*\*\*anti-establishment maverick. Trump is a \*ridiculous, lousy \*anti-establishment maverick, that’s why he’s losing. But if there were a smart, savvy, popular, younger, good-looking Republican anti-establishment maverick who was able to lure Bernie supporters, he or she might be leading Hillary by double digits right now. And I would like a pony too, but the Republicans had to settle with Discord before he reformed.\* - (It helps to have a little niece to know that 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![DonLogan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@DonLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/32 "2016-08-26T11:01:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is it really a case of The only person Clinton could beat is Trump and the only person Trump could beat is Clinton? > > The heir-presumptive Hillary had no one running against her except a left-wing pseudo Democrat that actually picked up quite a few delegates. She seems to have already been coronated by the Dem establishment before the primaries even started and AFAIK no mainstream Dem even thought about running against her. Why is that? And the current corruption allegations\*? Unless she actually wrote an email showing favors for donations the prevailing reaction will be “But she’s better than Trump”. Actually even if she admits it people will say she’s the better choice. > > And as for the clusterfuck that was the Pub side, I don’t think we could have gotten a worse slate of candidates. No moderates like Susan Collins or Brian Sandoval and out of that group, Trump?! OK he’s a better choice than Cruz but the more successful he was the more extreme he became which made him MORE successful. And Cruz as the runner up? The worst part is that just about any Pub other than Trump or Cruz would have easily beat Clinton. Hell I probably could beat her running as Not-Clinton. > > So my question is what does all of this tell us about the Parties and their electorate? Is this a battle of Ultimate Establishment vs. Non-Establishment or is it something else? > \*FTR, she didn’t do anything that other politicians don’t do. She should just stop using email. Any other repub but Trump could have beat Clinton. And Sanders would have lost to pretty much any repub, possibly including Trump. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/33 "2016-08-26T11:49:20Z")
Hillary is not a weak candidate. In 2008, she nearly beat a very charismatic Barack Obama who also happens to be an orator in the Martin Luther King class. When she lost, she put her big girl panties on and got four more years of experience and as a result is one of the most highly qualified candidates in history. She’s only a weak candidate if you listened to the endless litany of trumped-up (no pun intended) charges that Republicans have levied against her since 1992. Trump, on the other hand, is a weak candidate. He discovered that if you unite the white supremacist vote, you can win the nomination. That’s a problem for Republicans to figure out for future years. For now, they’re stuck with a bigoted candidate in the Strom Thurmond-George Wallace class. Let them wallow in their misery come November. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/34 "2016-08-26T12:18:15Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > True but aren’t other Democrats as popular as she is? I’m not being obstinate. I just don’t understand how your side of the aisle has Hillary leaps and bounds above other popular Democratic politicians. We nominated her because we can’t nominate Obama again. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/35 "2016-08-26T12:28:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Exactly. It’s like sports - the 16-0 Patriots beat everyone they encountered in the 2007 season, yet lost to the 10-6 Giants in the Super Bowl. Why? Because the Giants had perhaps the best pass rush of any team they faced, and that was the Patriots’ Kryptonite, since New England’s offense depended heavily on Tom Brady having time in the pocket. > Hillary’s Kryptonite is a \*\*\*good \*\*\*anti-establishment maverick. Trump is a \*ridiculous, lousy \*anti-establishment maverick, that’s why he’s losing. But if there were a smart, savvy, popular, younger, good-looking Republican anti-establishment maverick who was able to lure Bernie supporters, he or she might be leading Hillary by double digits right now. Very well put. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/36 "2016-08-26T12:34:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Hillary is not a weak candidate. In 2008, she nearly beat a very charismatic Barack Obama who also happens to be an orator in the Martin Luther King class. When she lost, she put her big girl panties on and got four more years of experience and as a result is one of the most highly qualified candidates in history… Plus spent those years making sure she did all she had to not to have a repeat of '08. With the Dem Establishment she applied the Art of War maxim about victory being achieved before a single arrow flies. So she ended up facing a weak mainstream candidate, and an insurgency that ended up heckling their putative leader when he pointed out it was time to settle for the possible. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/37 "2016-08-26T12:43:09Z")
I don’t think you can call Cruz an “outsider”. He’s a senator, which is one of the two standard stepping stones before the presidency, and he’s one who’s very influential within the current Congress (albeit, oddly, being more influential in the other house). Which of course doesn’t stop him from _claiming_ to be an outsider, but this cycle, everyone was claiming that. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/38 "2016-08-26T13:22:11Z")
I don’t think you can say Hillary would have easily beaten Joe Biden. As experienced as Hillary is, Joe is much more; and he has even closer ties to Obama than she does. People who want a continuation of an outgoing presidential administration vote for the VP. He’s also got the charming, everyman, blue collar thing going for him - he’s a natural glad-handler, which is truly Hillary’s kryptonite. And if he had campaigned in the wake of his son’s death you can toss in a layer of sympathy votes as well. Sigh. What might have been. Anyway, I agree that Hillary would be in deep shit if the GOP had nominated a reasonable Republican - I don’t think she’d beat a Bush or Romney. She’d struggle against a Rubio or Cruz, even. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/39 "2016-08-26T13:28:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > True but aren’t other Democrats as popular as she is? I’m not being obstinate. I just don’t understand how your side of the aisle has Hillary leaps and bounds above other popular Democratic politicians. Obama is but, as has been pointed out, he can’t run again. She really is the most popular–she’s been at it a long time. (We _do_ need to start raising up some young ones for the future!) _Your_ side of the aisle is the one that’s got some explaining to do… ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968/40 "2016-08-26T14:06:19Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I can’t agree, or really even disagree with this, unless you are specific about which “Pubs” you are referring to, and what “easily” means. But _I for instance have my doubts that Christie, Carson, Fiorina, or even Bush would have beaten her_, and certainly not easily, given the partisan split across the nation right now. – my _italics_. Which, in turn, explains why the Democrats could afford to pick Hillary. That said, I’m afraid I hardly see this election as a “done deal” as so many Dem-leaning posters – or those simply aware of what an utter disaster in the making Trump is – seem to think. How quickly we forget this is the same nation that had George W. Bush as its President for eight insane years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-how-did-it-end-up-like-this/763968.md?page=3)