# Clinton v Trump - The Stretch Run Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 30, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277 "2016-09-30T11:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/483 "2016-10-07T15:07:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I realize that his defense of the Confederacy has no relevance to his incoherent arguments here, and that bringing them up is an ad hominem that does nothing to encourage debate. I cop to a minor debate fault, and agree it should end here. I will henceforth constrain myself in this thread to only pointing out the egregious falsehoods which have a direct bearing on the Trump vs Clinton presidential contest. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/484 "2016-10-07T15:10:01Z")
> [@Skywolf](#): > > I prefer(not support) Trump over Clinton. Trump is an idiot businessman and Clinton is a traitorous criminal and I’d rather have an idiot businessman as president. If Clinton is a treasonous criminal, why, in the twenty-plus years they’ve had her in the cross-hairs, have the Republicans never pulled the trigger on any major political indictments against her? Why is the “Clinton Is A Criminal” theory stalled out at the “lies and innuendo” stage, never progressing to anything solid? Why is this whole thing more reminiscent of the hunt for Bigfoot than any actual criminal investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/485 "2016-10-07T15:15:49Z")
> [@Skywolf](#): > > I prefer(not support) Trump over Clinton. Trump is an idiot businessman and Clinton is a traitorous criminal and I’d rather have an idiot businessman as president. How, exactly, do you define “traitorous”? Because the way I see it (someone who actively betrays their country) doesn’t really in any way apply. Also, you do realize that almost all of the garbage coming out of the last presidential debate was from Trump, right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/486 "2016-10-07T15:19:23Z")
> [@Skywolf](#): > > I prefer(not support) Trump over Clinton. Trump is an idiot businessman and Clinton is a traitorous criminal and I’d rather have an idiot businessman as president. I think you missed the news of Trump making deals in Cuba while an embargo was going on, there is also more recently the falls from grace his fellow gremlins from the Kremlin had, that point to a lot of connections and possibly things that Trump owes to Russia that will cloud his already foggy memory when dealing with Putin if he wins. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/487 "2016-10-07T15:21:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Clinton is not a traitorous criminal. > [@Derleth](#): > > I cop to a minor debate fault, and agree it should end here. > > I will henceforth constrain myself in this thread to only pointing out the egregious falsehoods which have a direct bearing on the Trump vs Clinton presidential contest. > [@Derleth](#): > > If Clinton is a treasonous criminal, why, in the twenty-plus years they’ve had her in the cross-hairs, have the Republicans never pulled the trigger on any major political indictments against her? > > Why is the “Clinton Is A Criminal” theory stalled out at the “lies and innuendo” stage, never progressing to anything solid? > > Why is this whole thing more reminiscent of the hunt for Bigfoot than any actual criminal investigation? > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How, exactly, do you define “traitorous”? Because the way I see it (someone who actively betrays their country) doesn’t really in any way apply. > > Also, you do realize that almost all of the garbage coming out of the last presidential debate was from Trump, right? **Moderator Note** The poster you are responding to joined today and has been banned for spam as well as trolling. There is no need to continue to respond. Colibri Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/488 "2016-10-07T15:56:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You mean you’re not voting for Rump? No, sorry, my anaconda don’t want none. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/489 "2016-10-07T16:44:30Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > You realize people _remember your username_ from one thread to another, correct? > > [Civil War Was Not Over Slavery? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=630162) > > Ladies and gentlemen, the mind of the AGW denier. I do not defend any government. I have made that as clear as possible, maybe you could read what I’ve said, maybe not. I also haven’t not “denied” global warming, or that it has been contributed to by human industriousness. I have made two major claims. 1) Fossil fuels have been one of the best innovations in the history of mankind and have caused climate related deaths to plummet. 2) We should not further infringe on property rights in order to “combat” global warming. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is a monumental straw man, and it shows that you are not even aware of the basics. > The reality is that fossil fuel companies are the ones that in history were willing to not only put literal guns to people’s faces, but to use them also to get the fuel. That we are finding that we can not use the atmosphere as a sewer and the fossil fuel companies are behind a lot of efforts to inject FUD on people like you is just another thing that those companies should be taken to task for. In any instance the fossil fuel companies put guns in faces, I condemn that action. Unfortunately fossil fuel companies have used government as a weapon, and that is inconsistent with libertarianism, but not inconsistent with your preferred system of authoritarianism. The basics include being aware that billions of people rely on fossil fuels to live, and without fossil fuels human societies would never have progressed as rapidly as they have. Indeed you would probably not have the leisure time to daydream about subjecting billions of people to your poorly thought out coercive actions. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Just the most simple example of why you’re wrong here: FEMA is in charge of protecting our country from national disasters, and for providing relief to areas attacked. The effectiveness of FEMA has varied _massively_ from administration to administration, with the consistent result being that the people who believe that the government cannot do anything right staff it with trained chimpanzees and it does a piss-poor job, and the people who believe that the government can be a force for good staff it with people who know how to get shit done. > > And of course, yeah, we impact the weather. Is this somehow news to you? It’s been in the papers for a good 60+ years now; you’d think at some point you’d catch on. > > Except that’s not what Clinton said. Go back and re-read your own damn quote. You have to interpret that in both the dumbest and most unreasonable way possible to think that Clinton is talking about manipulating the weather. She’s most likely talking about attempts to curb anthropogenic global warming - something that will, as a whole, be _extremely_ negative, and which Trump doesn’t even believe _exists_. She could also very easily be talking about things like FEMA, which provide relief during and after major national disasters, or regulatory standards that help insure that if such a disaster does, in fact, strike, we’ll be prepared (and we all know what Trump’s opinion on such silly things as fire codes are). Things that are very much the government’s job, because _nobody else is going to do them otherwise, and if they don’t get done, people fucking die_. Yes she won’t manipulate the weather, she will curb it by enacting policy. She will protect us from temperature we don’t like. Hallelujah let the hosannas be warbled. Raise the heavenly choir. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I realize that his defense of the Confederacy has no relevance to his incoherent arguments here, and that bringing them up is an ad hominem that does nothing to encourage debate. > > Farnaby, if you genuinely think that Clinton, Trump et al think that they can “manipulate the weather by edict,” you’re very badly misunderstanding. If on the other hand you think that regulations are incapable of altering behavior on a major scale, you’re misunderstanding humans very badly. I never defended the confederacy. Do you guys understand the concepts of hubris and modesty? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/490 "2016-10-07T16:55:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I wouldn’t put it past Trump laying off people just to get the number up. > sorta j/k Well, the Trump Taj Mahal in Atlantic City is [closing on Monday](http://www.nj.com/atlantic/index.ssf/2016/10/atlantic_citys_trump_taj_mahal_to_close_monday.html), putting more than 3000 more people out of work. Trump doesn’t own it anymore (Carl Icahn, his pick for Treasury Secretary, does), but it’s still got his name on it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/491 "2016-10-07T17:17:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In any instance the fossil fuel companies put guns in faces, I condemn that action. Unfortunately fossil fuel companies have used government as a weapon, and that is inconsistent with libertarianism, but not inconsistent with your preferred system of authoritarianism. > > The basics include being aware that billions of people rely on fossil fuels to live, and without fossil fuels human societies would never have progressed as rapidly as they have. Indeed you would probably not have the leisure time to daydream about subjecting billions of people to your poorly thought out coercive actions. Well thank you for showing that indeed you are not aware that that was already taken into account by the IPCC and many other scientific and economic groups that recommend that we commit to change, no serious policy proposed tell us that we should shut down civilization. Indeed you are still missing the basics and just following denialist propaganda. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes she won’t manipulate the weather, she will curb it by enacting policy. She will protect us from temperature we don’t like. Hallelujah let the hosannas be warbled. Raise the heavenly choir. And you also demonstrate here a common climate change denial tactic ([actually a very common pseudo scientist tactic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)), declaring that the side that proposes change is doing so for religious reasons, that BTW i a common talking point of followers of pseudoscience. And really, I do not think you are thinking well about calling what science reports a religion. It is really an acknowledgement that you are losing more than one debate: > **[Why do people call climate change a religion?](https://carboncounter.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/why-do-people-call-climate-change-a-religion/)** > > Here is a linguistic oddity. When climate change “skeptics” start attacking belief in climate change, they will often claim that climate change has become some kind of religion. This us… > [@](#): > > Here is a linguistic oddity. When climate change “skeptics” start attacking belief in climate change, they will often claim that climate change has become some kind of religion. > > This use of language is worth de-constructing. “Religion” is being used pejoratively. But why is this? > > Let’s consider the reverse. Have you ever heard someone use the word “science” pejoratively? > > “Belief in reincarnation has become like a science”; “belief in the Virgin Mary is no longer religious, it is a science”. Somehow it lacks pizazz, and it simply ends up lending credibility to absurd beliefs. > > Yet, when people say “Belief in climate change has become like a religion” it is an obvious attack on the credibility of climate science. > > The problem is that the person making the claim is implicitly assuming that his readers think religion lacks credibility. > > I mean, think about it. If religion is credible, then calling climate change a religion would not be a criticism in the first place. > [@](#): > > Oh, and here is Ted Cruz, a contender for the Republic nomination for the 2016 Presidential elections: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > Much of the global warming hysteria is pushed forth as a religious truth that no facts can dare contravene. > > > > ``` > > Again, these are puzzling words. Cruz is a reactionary Christian, who seems to be all in favour of religious truths that no facts can dare contravene. > > So, why do so many conservative Christian now use words such as “religious truth” pejoratively? > > The answer is probably given by Steven Pinker in a recent piece in the Boston Globe: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > Perhaps the greatest discovery in human history — one that is prior to every other discovery — is that our traditional sources of belief are in fact generators of error and should be dismissed as grounds for knowledge. These include faith, revelation, dogma, authority, charisma, augury, prophesy, intuition, clairvoyance, conventional wisdom, and subjective certainty. > > > > ``` > > **Men such as Ted Cruz may believe in Jesus, but they have likely long since given up the idea that religions are a guide to finding new knowledge. In this respect the Enlightenment has succeeded.** Almost no one turns to God for answers when it comes to the potential impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. The Bible, Koran, and every other holy book, are notably silent on the issue. > > So, the easiest way for conservative climate change “skeptics” to discredit climate science is to call it religion. Perhaps we should welcome this. It is simply the latest sign of the continued erosion of the credibility of religion in the western world. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/492 "2016-10-07T18:30:31Z")
Ok you cite some animated movie I never heard of and some meandering diatribe on religion in debate in a wall of text. Do you think I care about what a bunch of blinkered specialists have to say. They think that because they’ve decided to spend their entire life on one topic that they can use government violence to cow 7 billion people into submission and subdue human prosperity to inflate their fragile self worth. If I got a government grant to study the best cheese for society, should I be allowed to turn the guns at society’s producers to justify my existence? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/493 "2016-10-07T18:40:09Z")
This thread has taken the strangest turn I could possibly imagine. It’s like “colorless green worms sleep furiously” has become legitimate political discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/494 "2016-10-07T18:41:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok you cite some animated movie I never heard of and some meandering diatribe on religion in debate in a wall of text. > > Do you think I care about what a bunch of blinkered specialists have to say. They think that because they’ve decided to spend their entire life on one topic that they can use government violence to cow 7 billion people into submission and subdue human prosperity to inflate their fragile self worth. > > If I got a government grant to study the best cheese for society, should I be allowed to turn the guns at society’s producers to justify my existence? Climate change will catastrophically impact our environment, geography, and economy. It’ll lead to droughts, crop failures, deaths, and global conflicts. What will your cheese do? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/495 "2016-10-07T18:50:56Z")
Back on track, people. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/496 "2016-10-07T19:14:58Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Deeper question is, why does the GOP go to explicitly racist and xenophobic tropes to attract a voting base? The long history we refer to metonymically with the term Southern Strategy is a good answer here. > > My point is, there’s an asymmetry in American politics. One major party is more-or-less explicitly racist and the other major party is not. The GOP is the racist major party, it has been since long before Trump, and it will continue to be unless we can muster the political will to recognize that both sides damned well _don’t_ do it. You can’t fix a problem you can’t even acknowledge. This goes back to the first part of my response, which is that the media distorts reality. And it’s not just Faux News - CNN used to be a credible news gathering organization but it became Fox Light. Most corporate news organizations aren’t interested in pointing out that both sides don’t do it because they’re commercially oriented and they don’t want to piss off viewers and advertisers – take, for instance, the recent example of conservative newspaper endorsements and the vicious backlash against them. Your point about republicans and racism is well taken, and I agree – it has become a haven for racists. I don’t think that all republicans intended it for it to be _that_ party. I think most are just firm believers in Darwinistic sociopath capitalism. Unfortunately, though, the GOP has become _that_ party. The moderates, the reasonable republicans are being pushed to the side. Paul Ryan’s example makes it pretty clear that if republicans want to remain in the party, they will have to capitulate to the demands of the alt-right. Going off on a tangent here, but if John McCain somehow wins, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him defect from the GOP and become an independent or even a Democrat. I think he’s really become a lousy senator in terms of policy but I still see a shred of decency there from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/497 "2016-10-07T19:32:59Z")
“if John McCain somehow wins”? Kind of looks like he has it locked down. There’s not a ton of polling but he’s had a double digit lead for months with the last Emerson poll from a few days ago putting him +16. I somehow doubt he’s jumping parties. It could be his last term considering his age, so I guess you never know but… ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/498 "2016-10-07T19:33:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Going off on a tangent here, but if John McCain somehow wins, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him defect from the GOP and become an independent or even a Democrat. I think he’s really become a lousy senator in terms of policy but I still see a shred of decency there from time to time. The RCP average has him 16 points up; are you suggesting that his reelection is unlikely? ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/499 "2016-10-07T19:43:28Z")
[Trump’s latest theory: Immigrants are pouring over the border to vote](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/07/donald-trumps-got-a-new-theory-illegal-immigrants-are-crossing-the-border-to-vote/) A part of me wishes I could find this sort of thing really funny … or maybe really sad. Instead it just pisses me off. How many people will believe that Trump lost because millions of Mexicans flocked over the border to illegally cast a ballot in our election? On the positive side, I guess, maybe some Trump supporters who believe this aren’t registered to vote themselves and will show up at the polls believing that since Mexicans can vote, surely they can too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/500 "2016-10-07T19:49:26Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Back on track, people. Cheese it, fellas, it’s the mods! ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/501 "2016-10-07T19:54:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unless he’s suggesting that mass sacrifice is the best way to make the Americas great again. Only people of certain colors. You know who he means. The exception being orange. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/502 "2016-10-07T20:04:31Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > [Trump’s latest theory: Immigrants are pouring over the border to vote](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/07/donald-trumps-got-a-new-theory-illegal-immigrants-are-crossing-the-border-to-vote/) > > A part of me wishes I could find this sort of thing really funny … or maybe really sad. > > Instead it just pisses me off. How many people will believe that Trump lost because millions of Mexicans flocked over the border to illegally cast a ballot in our election? > > On the positive side, I guess, maybe some Trump supporters who believe this aren’t registered to vote themselves and will show up at the polls believing that since Mexicans can vote, surely they can too. Hilarious! You just can’t make this shit up. No doubt a segment of the population will be nodding their heads in approval saying, “See. See!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277.md?page=26)